Social conditioning - a thread for those who admit it impacts on them.

[SomersetONeil]

This topic seems to be so hotly denied on many threads I read on here (MN in general, that is).

Or else, admitted, but denied on a personal level. As in, 'OK sure, societal conditioning happens, but I choose to do X because I prefer it'. Acknowledgement of societal conditioning, but a peronal distancing of themselves from it, as if they're above such things.

We all undertand how marketing works, how social norms and unseen pressures work, and yet so many people insist it doesn't work on them.

Is it because to admit you're affected by it means you're somehow not very smart, don't have much nous, susceptible, gullible? What?

People also say that the accusation of social conditioned is patronising. Why?

I'm intelligent, well-read, educated, and I fully admit to being socially conditioned on so many levels. I'm not in the least bit patronised by the suggestion. Why would I be so arrogant as to believe that I am immune to it?

Anyone else?

what you said

yes

Completely agree with you SomersetONeil

I always find it hilarious how feminists are accused of being arrogant for admitting that we're as subject to social conditioning as everyone else. And then for accusing everyone else of being stupid because they're just like us...

Yes of course I am affected massively by social conditioning.

Signing in.

yes, totally.
I never understand where people get this idea from that feminists think we're immune to it.

Yes of course. Everyone is subject to social conditioning.

Certainly a lot of the 'choices' I make, which may seem to be going against social conditioning to other people are not really. A lot of the grooming that I don't do is a consequence of having family members that don't do it, and have never had friends that are particularly into that sort of thing, so for me to do it I would actually have to go against the social norms I'm used to.

And I think that can be quite challenging I think - if I am talking about this kind of stuff to somebody who has been socialised differently, it can make both of us realise that our choices are perhaps not really chosen. Or more negatively it can make one or both of us end up denying that the person's different experience is 'normal.'

I was just thinking about starting a thread about this! There's so much outrage about it. "These feminists are accusing me of being brainwashed! I just like high heels / shaving my legs. The culture I live in has no effect on my taste and opinions. At all." Er, if society's norms had no effect on you then wouldn't that mean you were actually a sociopath or a psychopath or something? Why is it seen as such a terrible thing to recognise that we are shaped by society?

What a lovely, reassuring thread! Some flipping sense!

It astonishes me that in spite of the facts- you know, how it takes a good twenty years from birth to learn how to move and operate in this world, and that this highly complex life-training (socialisation) is absolutely crucial for survival and social inclusion - that all this conditioning is consistently denied as having any bearing on behaviour!

It would be impossible to freely choose everything - we'd have to somehow erase all our life experiences from our minds - like extreme electric shock therapy - prior to every decision in order to make that decision free from conditioning.

And even on the other hand if that were possible all we would have left was our impulses, which is hardly free choice either.

There is so much pressure to conform in order not to be a social pariah, from grooming to just simply smiling when you would much prefer to just scowl. I have never fitted in terribly well and really don't give a shit about it. However when it comes to the really "big" stuff, I find myself to be really quite conservative. (not politically obv) I guess we are pack animals, social creatures and the consequences of not fitting in might not be starvation any more but it's deep in our psyche to follow the herd.

I think it is impossible to deny social conditioning/learning. Of course we are all hugely shaped by the culture we grow up in and live in.

But equally I think the "it's all social conditioning" argument is equally spurious.

Most things are a combination of inate and learnt. The process of learning is itself part of our nature. Some things are easier to learn than others.

The idea that we are all perfectly rational free agents is also, of course bollocks.

Great thread.

I think the illusion of choice is in itself just another facet of social conditioning.

Nice to see some people who just get it. :)

It's sort of the 'skinny jeans effect'. I mean, fashion is social conditioning to a T. Funny how everyone's been wearing skinny jeans for quite some time now. Bootcuts are thought of as a bit Mumsy and dated and frumpy. Skinny jeans just look so much better, etc, etc, etc. Everyone just happens to think this, en mass, all at the same time, right when skinny jeans are having their zeitgeist. But no, listening to some people, they just like skinny jeans because they like them; not because fashion - society at large - is influencing their choices.

When men were all wearing powdered wigs in the 18th Century, it was because it was the done thing; they weren't all independently coming to the same coincendetal conclusion that silver wigs made them look more fetching than their regular, bog-standard hair. Social conditioning isn't just something that affects women, of course.

I do all sorts of things that people who don't identify as feminist think feminists disapprove of. Remove my body hair. Wear make-up, heels, etc. I kow-tow to the patriarchy all the time. I simply do not have the balls to go out with hairy legs or armpits, as much as non-feminists might like to think there's no derision of women who do make this choice. Because we all know there is derision and I just don't have the inclination to go into that battle every day.

The thing that really gets me is - even as a patriarchy-complaint, non-social-conditioning-denier, is that I still do an internal eye-brow raise at women who don't conform. I hate myself for it, but I do. I started a new job recently and there's one women who dresses really well - very much her own style - early 40s, but doesn't pluck her brows or dye her hair and has very noticeable upper-lip hair. It was one of the first things I noticed about her. She didn't conform.

If I notice it and have a momentary internal double-take - someone who identifies as a feminist and utterly supports free choice (even if I don't have the balls wherewithal to make those choices myself) - then forgive me for not quite believing that all those who actively don't identify as feminist wouldn't notice also.

There's a thread in AIBU at the moment about the propriety of wearing tights to work or whether bare legs are acceptable. The majority seem to think that tights are appropriate - and fair enough, men cover their legs for work, too. However, those who say it is OK to go bare-legged pretty much without exception all say that they MUST be 'nice' legs, in good shape, moisturised, and above all, hair-free. Really. Well, I agree - I certainly wouldn't go into work with dry, hairy legs. But come on - can people really deny the social pressure behind that decision?

*Apologies for any rogue generalisations, but hopefully people get what I mean.

I am socially conditioned in soooo many ways!

Yes. Socially conditioned here too. The joy of humans having evolved as intelligent, highly social animals with distinct survival and reproductive advantages to those who 'fit in' with the group.

Not quite what you were asking for, but I'm feeling tired and confessional. Thanks to a combination of soul-searching and ill health, I've been flouting many of the 'rules' for a few years now. My house is a pigsty. I can & do scrub up if I have to, but generally look shite. Plus, I conducted a two-year experiment to see how I looked with all my real leg & pit hair, and to get used to it. That experiment finished this year but, due to the previous reasons, I've been pretty slack about keeping myself mowed.

Intellectually I am pleased about all this, and interested in my changing perceptions. But - I can't help it - I feel shame. It's not even coming from other people, who are far too polite to comment or even visibly flinch. It's all self-generated. Women who say they perform femininity (and, I'm sure, men doing masculinity) to make themselves feel good aren't lying. I would feel a whole lot better without the utterly pointless shame I feel about these superficial failings.

We differ only, perhaps, in that I've had to examine this in depth and conclude I've been so thoroughly socialised - by media images; passing comments on women's well-groomed homes and bodies; shop windows and even my education - that I've internalised a set of standards as applicable to myself. Even though there's scant evidence that I, personally, am judged by those standards: I am a woman. I've learned that these are standards for women. So I judge myself.

Of course I'd feel better about myself if I could judge myself favourably!

Somerset - I know what you mean. I was an extended breastfeeder with both my kids till 3 and a half. But still when I see a woman breastfeeding a toddler my brain fires off "that looks odd and a bit ew", until quash that thought.

"social conditioning"' always sounds unecessarily sinister to me. Socialisation in itself is a good thing, and we are primed to learn the social conventions of our world, have an urge to fit in etc... The thing is to be able to question which conventions are helpful or benign and which are undermining. Which Feminism has played a huge role in.

I think the skinny jeans vs bootcut example is a good one to use as an illustration because it's not so politically loaded as e.g. high heels.

I don't live in the UK. When I am in the UK, I notice the high level of social conditioning and it is much higher than where I live (Southern Med). In the UK, hair extensions, fake tan, those weird gel nails, skinny jeans and Ugg boots seems to be the unofficial uniform for many young women, and then there's the 'festival' uniform of Hunter wellies, denim cut-off shorts, etc, which always makes me smile. In the Med, I find that people are much more individual in their style and taste.

Here, people are certainly less body conscious; possibly from every generation spending so much time on the beach for five months of the year. You see everyone from children to grandmothers in their bikinis and so people grow up with a very realistic picture of what a teen, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60 and 70 year old body looks like. Women in the UK are certainly more obsessed by body weight and also much heavier. Sure, women get rid of body hair here, but so do many men as sun tan lotion and body hair is not a good combination. Hairy armpits similar to those of Julia Roberts at the film premiere are not that uncommon though and stubbly legs/bikini line are not as shocking as they would be in the UK. As for colouring hair, well, many men do it here too.

The cult of celebrity is also much less here.

Maybe it's down to a natural artistic eye, maybe it's cultural but the styles, tastes and fashions are dramatically more varied than in the UK. Social conditioning - absolutely, but less of a sheep mentality here and certainly a much lower maintenance type look.

I feel that the social conditioning is less here than in the UK which makes it a nicer place to live.

If you live in several countries as a child, you learn quite young (a) to adapt your behaviour to the place you are currently in (b) to pick and choose the aspects of society that you prefer from one place to another. You are fully conscious of the social norms that people who only ever live in one place are not conscious of.

I am aware that pretty much everything I do is affected by social conditioning. I challenge some of it, but conform in other respects.

If you don't conform to ANY of the social norms, there is a risk that you will be dismissed as completely bonkers.

"If you don't conform to ANY of the social norms, there is a risk that you will be dismissed as completely bonkers."

This is very true . And some social norms are really quite universal across developed societies... so possibly not really worth challenging.

Very true Bonsoir. As you have obviously lived out of the UK, do you find the level of social conditioning in the UK to be higher than other places? The cost of fake tan, take nails, hair extensions isn't one that many people have here. Maybe that's due to the lifestyle though. God, the thought of a load of fake hair on my head, sweating off fake tan and fake claws in the 40° heat is just horrific.