Social conditioning - a thread for those who admit it impacts on them.

[SomersetONeil]

This topic seems to be so hotly denied on many threads I read on here (MN in general, that is).

Or else, admitted, but denied on a personal level. As in, 'OK sure, societal conditioning happens, but I choose to do X because I prefer it'. Acknowledgement of societal conditioning, but a peronal distancing of themselves from it, as if they're above such things.

We all undertand how marketing works, how social norms and unseen pressures work, and yet so many people insist it doesn't work on them.

Is it because to admit you're affected by it means you're somehow not very smart, don't have much nous, susceptible, gullible? What?

People also say that the accusation of social conditioned is patronising. Why?

I'm intelligent, well-read, educated, and I fully admit to being socially conditioned on so many levels. I'm not in the least bit patronised by the suggestion. Why would I be so arrogant as to believe that I am immune to it?

Anyone else?

florencejon - I go the UK very regularly (8 - 10 times a year, to see my parents) and where they live there is really no culture of orange skin/over blond hair/fake nails. I see much more over-consumption of pointless "grooming" services in Paris than I do in the beautiful, tasteful Weald of Kent!

Bonsoir - OK. One extreme to the other I guess then.

Something I do believe to be true about the UK, however, is that the poor weather and the pale, sun-unfriendly skin of the natives means that people don't spend much time on the beach in a state of undress in nature. I do think that in Mediterranean climates people spend a lot more time making themselves look attractive in state of semi-undress in beautiful sunny surroundings. And the results is definitely, on average, a lot easier on the eye than loading up with consumer grooming and fashion products which is what people do in colder climates.

Bonsoir - completely agree about the climate differences and how that affects people. Bikini, sarong, flip flops, no make up and hair in a chignon is extremely low maintenance and also the norm here. My only preparation before going out is cleaning my teeth and brushing my hair. Certainly quicker than DP who has to shave.

kim "If you don't conform to any of the social norms, then you might also end up on some kind of TV programme as well."

Yep, just like the absolutely fantastic Mary Beard!

Many modern grooming products and services are absolutely pointless, even detrimental to looking good. People have become such unthinking consumers with nothing better to do that they carry on and on purchasing the "next thing", be that a face cream or make-up or eyelash perming... without looking at the whole. I look at some women (especially when I go to the hairdressers) and think that they just don't know when to stop fiddling with themselves!

Women in the UK certainly seem much less secure in their natural state than women in the Med and also much more apologetic for how they look. Still working out why.

I watched my mother as a child with Harmony throat-gagging hairspray, can't-walk-in high heels, silly handbags etc and thought she and her friends were hopelessly insane. Even now, as she goes into the twilight, she follows "fashion" (which I admire for a never say die attitude).

It was a good lesson in conditioning and I have always done the bare minimum to pass muster and not excite notice or comment (apart from a brief teenage fishnet stocking punk moment of madness).

So I agree, observe what's necessary to disguise oneself under the prevailing norms and adapt as suits.

The hairspray, high heels and handbags of yesteryear weren't nearly as awful as the boob jobs, lip pumping, tatoos and hair extensions of today.

A lot of British women have no aesthetic consciousness at all.

Harmony throat-gagging hairspray! Another product which is used way more in the UK.

I think you may be slightly off-topic Bonsoir...

Bonsoir "A lot of British women have no aesthetic consciousness at all."

So, so, so true. I often wonder if this is down to the British obsession of uniforms. Again, not sure but am pondering. I can spot British tourists a mile away. The bad posture, apologetic, we're not in Kansas anymore Toto, kind of look.

Why, hullygully? Surely consciousness (or lack thereof) is the very heart of awareness of social conditioning and your ability to rise above it?

florencejon - I think those dreadful uniforms in the formative years have a lot to answer for, personally! Learning to dress to suit your looks and body type takes years and British schools bypass this entirely on the curriculum.

obsession with uniforms, which results in it becoming normal to conform, which even when people don't have to wear a uniform means that they still want to conform, type of mentality.

Re: Skinny jeans, I'm gutted that they are now cool again. I was a chubby teen the last time skinny jeans were cool in the 80's. Then in my 20's it was bootcuts which were OK but I was, back then, patriarchially-compliantly skinny despite my chocolate-and-shite diet. Now I'm in my 30's and fat again and friggin' skinny jeans make my legs look like two overstuffed sausages. FML!

Gods yes there are reams of socially compliant women and men out there denying like mad that it's anything other than their personal choice. Clothes and make-up and defuzzing choices are the amusing/ non-damaging end of it- the escalating numbers of plastic surgeries is what gives me the fear.

C4ro - the skinny jeans thing is definitely a British thing. Yes, people wear them here, but also boot cut, very wide flare, also casual combat style and not just in denim. In cotton and linen too and it a variety of colours. It's more about dressing in a style which suits you rather than dressing in what the world of marketing says you have to wear.

Really thinking this desire to conform in the UK must have something to do with wearing school uniforms.

I don't think there is anything wrong per se in teaching children the wisdom of conformity at school: I think children need to learn to spell correctly, learn mathematics, do a viable reading comprehension etc, behave respectfully towards buildings and fellow pupils as well as teachers etc. There are universal values and truths that all advanced societies share and we need to learn about them, which requires conformity to standards that have objective, scientific bases.

It's conformity to the non-universal that I dislike, be it religious belief, ridiculous clothing on small children, fake nails or whatever else.

kim You're right. No school uniform here. I find that the British are way more law abiding than people in the Med. More respectful of rules and regulations but less free spirited.

It's also interesting that men don't seem to need to conform in a uniform - unless it's jeans and t-shirt / top. Yet they went to school and wore uniform.

You also seem to see more men who don't conform in society than women. I think they would be described as eccentric if they really don't conform.

"I am aware that pretty much everything I do is affected by social conditioning. I challenge some of it, but conform in other respects."

Absolutely. Believe it or not, DP grimaces if he catches a glimpse of my armpits with a bit of stubble I had a right go at him for that, and he admitted he has been socially conditioned to find that 'horrible'. Well hats off to him for admitting it. I think he was quite envious of me not caring much about the state of my armpits

Completely agree and this is something I constantly seem to be arguing with people on here about, especially in breast and bottle feeding. "well of course they can advertise, it's nice to have all the information, no one actually bottle feeds or switches to that formula because of the adverts, or because someone on TV does it do they "

Advertising works! That's why it's such big business

I think men generally conform a huge amount. Most men I know are less creative than the women I know.