A chatty, questions and random comments thread

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

There used to be a lovely 'Chat' thread where we could all be silly or just comment/witter on about stuff, and I've not seen it since this place got renamed to 'Chat'. Would it be a good time to have another random chatty thread going? I think there are some newbies having a look around after the thread about calling yourself a feminist, so maybe it would be a nice thing?

So people can ask random questions or make comments without feeling they have to jump right in to an ongoing thread or write an OP, if they don't want to.

Don't know what nursing is like now .
It was certainly like that 35,30,25,20 years ago - then I lost touch with it.

I thought with the rise in Diploma/Degree nursing things had "improved" a bit. Save only there are now less vocational nurses of either gender than there used to be. [OK, that last bit is from 2 cynical older non-degree nurses, both female ]

Did you actively seek out places with male teachers/childcarers, SGM? Or was it just coincidence?

joyful - I think that myth diminishes when men care for their own children, maybe? I'm not sure, but I notice on threads that when there are people who know lots of men who take on a big part of the childcaring tasks, those people are also the most clear that it's absurd to brand all men in childcare as paedophiles. So maybe this is a situation where personal/individual experiences will eventually change the social/political situation?

Sorry, I am not answering very well either, as I am knackered, but it is important to me too.

Another mate of mine has just announced his wife is pregnant and his is thrilled to be planning how best to be a dad (and I will say this here because I can't there, but I do wish I could have a baby now.)

That's very kind of you. I'm sorry about your yearning.

I am just saying it because of course I am being thrilled and gushy on his facebook page. Which I am, but you know what I mean.

I do wonder if there's a faster way, maybe there is? Does anyone else think?

It's tricky, isn't it, because you could imagine a campaign to get men interesting in nursery nursing and to convince people men like that were lovely blokes - but when I think how to do it, all I can think of is how to use the old images of masculinity. So all it'd end up doing would be shifting the job to seem more masculine, it wouldn't break down the idea of masculinity being a problem in itself.

*faster way than personal experiense to influence people's views, I mean.

I wonder what the official figures are (or if there are any). But it's not a high number, I know.

I think about 80% of it is pressure we don't even notice. I know that's not a popular idea. It's true maybe 20% of it is choices like preferring to stay home. But I think most of it is to do with a series of tiny cumulative pushes in different directions that girls and boys get, then men and women. Tiny things like someone telling a little girl she is so caring, so that gets built into her sense of herself, or like little boys going for the blue mechanical toy because blue is for boys not the pink frying pan.

And then when we're adults it carries on. I can't quantify it but there just is a difference in the way people talk to most men in my discipline than the way they talk to most women, and it's a small thing but cumulatively it's the sort of thing that gives you a push one way or the other.

But then this is true IMO of most life choices that don't seem anything to do with feminism. There would be a million small things, for example, that make someone actually decide to go into journalism or medicine or being an estate agent, even if they're only really noticing one or two big ones.

Very true LRD.

I totally agree with that, LRD.

(what is the LRD part, btw - I always say Little Red Dragon in my head, but it is likely much more profound)

I am temping in a software development company and there is a distinct lack of women, except in marketing and sales. These past weeks I have been calling customers in Germany and there have been all of 3 out of over 1000 women MDs or contacts. Plenty of secretaries, but very few of the decision makers are women.

I was talking to one of the sales staff (who obviously knows a lot about geeky stuff) and she said that sometimes she is asked if she is has expertise in a certain area - which they would not ask a male staff member. Another woman said that she hates going to trade fairs because she is regularly hit on by customers. From 'fancy coming up to my room later' to standing too close, and giving 'back rubs'.

There is one tech woman, who I am going to have to nab when she makes tea and have a chat about being a woman in tech field.

It isn't more profound!

But thanks, and snatch (that's about the only euphemism we've not discussed on the other thread ... am I rude to call you it?!).

Eww at 'back rubs'.

Snatch is fine! The phrase is from Gaudy Night but the double entendre potential didn't escape me

Back rubs?? Where the fuck do those men get off considering a woman doing her job as their personal squeeze toy?

I think you are right about those little pushes, LRD. Though obviously some are bigger than others. Once you really start to see it (the fact that, for example, people talk to men and women in different ways, like you say), it becomes so glaringly obvious.

I have a male business partner. In meetings, people always talk to him, and only occasionally look over at me. They also email him after a meeting, possibly copying me in. They expect me to have to consult with him to make a decision; they think he can make decisions without consulting me. It took me a while to properly realise how this was affecting me. It completely affected my self esteem, made me question myself, made me feel like I needed to run everything past him...

Not sure where I'm going with this, but I suspect I'm just trying to agree with you about how little things affect the choices you make.

Yes I think small things like this, which arent really small when you are experiencing them every day, do affect the decisions you make. I know I moved out of the area of work I was in, into what I do now, partly because I was fed up of the constant everyday sexism.

Team I worked for (where I supervised about another 6 people) had the "wimmin write on whiteboards and make the tea" problem.

Boss told one of my people - natch a woman - that she could nip out at lunchtime and get the sandwiches. I said she couldn't, as she was doing something for me. If they wrote down what they wanted I'd get them.

She then said, "Oh, I don't mind," Which got her a "Well, I do. I'm not paying for you to be a gopher."

Glad you did that, OMC.