It is expected women shall be 'good' mothers, but good fathers merit compliment.

[rubberglove]

It has struck me, the number of times it has been commented on, how good my dh is with the kids.

He is.

But it is said with an under tone of surprise, while I am never afforded such compliments. Though I am with them day in day out, doing the drudge.

This isn't a superiority contest, but merely my feeling that somehow it is expected I be 'a good mother', yet my dh patience and hands on approach is worthy of comment because, well such things from a father are above expectation of a man.

It makes me angry

I agree. And as much as my dh does housework (we have a cleaner) and does his own ironing, twas not til I read Wifework that it truly dawned on me that the whole thing would collapse without me.

At the moment it's 2 titles below this one and has over 250 postings--"Women subsumed into their children". It wouldn't be about men, that you can be sure of.

I totally agree. My DH is a SAHD. I recently went to a fete held by my DD's toddler group, and six or seven women made a point of coming to tell me what a fantastic job DH is doing.

While I totally agree he is a fantastic Dad, you didn't see anyone rushing to tell anyone what a great job any of the other women were doing...It made me feel a bit sad really.

Oh, just realised I was guilty of doing his today, commenting on how great it was that a friends DH takes DCs swimming every week. My DH never does it, it always falls to me.
I'm a bit pissed off with myself now as it winds me up no end when this happens with DH.

There is still a lot of ground to be covered here isn't there?

It's all about ingrained assumptions and perceptions - these comments are give aways that no matter how equally we strive to parent, what women do is seen as 'normal' whereas what men do is seen as above and beyond 'normal' realms of expected behaviour (aren't you lucky he's so involved?) or seen in a patronising manner (he's a man yet he does so well), and therefore generates praise from others.

DP & I parent pretty much equally, though we have different roles. I am much more of a driving force, organiser, catalyst in our family. I also thank people for stuff naturally - so when DP cooks I will thank him for the lovely meal (if it is lovely - some days it's simply "thank you for the meal" ), which is what I was brought up to do - to appreciate and genuinely thank people. But DP does not always do the same when I cook.

I often have to bite my tongue to stop myself from thanking him for doing stuff with/for the kids or around the house - not because I don't appreciate it, but because he is simply doing his job as a father and i don't get the same thanks for doing the same things as a Mum. I do feel mean sometimes, but I am aware of the message it sends for ME to thank HIM for simply being a parent. So I strive to show him I appreciate him, without thanking him for doing XYZ (usual parenting/house jobs). He lets me know he appreciates me, but he doesn't do the thanking for the daily bits and bobs. I've had to change what seems to come naturally to me.

I will admit to internally being thankful that DP is how he is though (as I couldn't do it any other way and don't fancy being a single parent) - compared to pretty much every other family we know (those where I am aware of the parenting balance), we work really evenly and fairly. In one way this really surprises me. However I know that our parenting balance is a mix of him wanting/loving/needing/expecting to be very involved and me laying down boundaries and being very clear (bolshy/mouthy) about my expectations of us as parents from the outset.

I'm really surprised at other female friends who carry the bulk of the parenting, and are resentful but resigned about it and don't push/voice their concerns (he's the main breadwinner therefore ....., or he's my soulmate therefore ....., or I want to do it therefore ....., or he's worked all week therefore it's OK for him to be absent drinking/sport/etc all weekend ......, or I don't want to upset him/cause a row....... etc). I don't see how long a healthy relationship can be sustained when one person is swallowing resentment and smiling desperately on a daily basis striving to "be OK" and enabling the other parent to swan around without parenting responsibilities. How long can a family remain healthy when one parent takes advantage of the other and the other is resentful? These are the fathers I see being praised for their meagre involvements with parenting - it just enables the divide and resentment further.

One last point is DP finds hands on parenting extremely rewarding as do I. Whereas many fathers around us, seem to perceive it as another job/chore to be shirked out of if at all possible, and their partners enable this. It's really sad. Yes there is some dullness around parenting/housework, but they are also missing out on so much.

RedBlanket why don't you and your DP do alternate weeks with the swimming?

I agree. I was once told on a flight by a stewardess when DH was reading a story to the DCs that he was a good dad. Sure, he's great. But. If it had been my turn to do the story, would you have said that to him about me?

I must have missed out on all these compliments :)

To me, reading a book, playing games, in fact doing anything with a child is important and part of being a parent. I can't understand why people would assume that it isn't - and in fact, it seems pretty wrong for people to assume that the default is that dad's aren't involved.

A lot of the dads I know are very involved in their children's lives - all aspects, as well as being more involved in the more practical side of running a house. Personally, I can't understand why a dad would not want to be involved in their child's lives, and I certainly wouldn't expect to be praised for it because that's patronising.

Like people said, women don't get praised for it - so why do people praise men for doing it?

Cantthink, ask your DW/DP if anyone has ever said those things to her about you - I think that may be more common than a direct compliment.

I noticed it most when dc1 was new and people kept saying how amazing it was that dh could change nappies and stuff. I mean, it was all new to me as well, I wasn't born knowing how to change nappies and we'd both been through the same steep learning curve together, so it was truly striking how much praise he got for something totally taken for granted when I did it.

Well, it's now ExDP - but that's a different story.

I do think it's kind of patronising and putting men down when they get praised for being involved in childcare. All the men on the NCT course I was with (which is probably a self selecting group) couldn't do enough to be involved with their children and would not expect to be praised for it. Changing a nappy, making up a feed or getting up at 1 in the morning to feed or see what the problem is is not exactly difficult and it's what I expected to do.

Do people just expect dads not to be involved so are amazed when they are? That seems to be to be a very outdated attiutude - if anything, it's those dads who aren't involved who should be criticised for not being a parent.

cantthink what amazes me is how many of my long term female friends, who are educated, "career" people and who I would have considered feminists, have slipped so easily into the uber-parent role, and watch (resentfully) as their partners slip into a largely child rearing free roles. These same men are then being heaped with praise by all around them for the little they do.

I am knitting a sling for my ever dropping jaw! It astonishes me.

And it does seem that neither parent takes on board what a disservice is being done to all involved. From what the Mum's say to me it is NOT working for them, and yet they continue to enable it, rather than confront it. And they continue with the praise.

There are a lots of women who do stacks at the primary school. Organising events children will enjoy, clearing up events, raising money on and on and on. Some are SAHM some arent.

DH does nothing at all fair enough he works outside the home long hours. Just once for 2 hours last November he helped put up some Christmas lights. He was mentioned BY NAME in the heads address which is the important bit of the school newsletter. Even he was some of the mums give their lives to that school and never get a mention!

I hear lots of comments about 'good' mums and 'rubbish' mums.I hear praise for mums all the time but its not really a middle class area.

Kerala - that rings a bell with me.

I found the different attitudes to myself and my DH helping out in school, by the predominantly female staff, quite interesting.

Due to our DD having quite severe problems at the time we took it in turns to do stints as unpaid TAs. It was almost laughable the way DH was treated; regular hot drinks brought to him, staff-room biscuits, congratulated regularly on how amazing he was to be giving up his time. The response to me was polite and helpful no more - giving up my time was much more expected.

The truth was, it was more of a big deal for DH to give up his time than me as he is freelance and there was no income that month, whereas I'm a SAHM, but the staff didn't know that - I could have been taking time out from a career.

Even if I had, I still think it would have received less comment - mothers are assumed to be the primary carer no matter what other obligations they may have, whilst society seems to still be a bit in awe of fathers for just being competent.

This rings a bell. DH is okay round the house and had chores to do as a child, but when his stepmum moved in she designated them as "women's work" and took over (she also overfeeds men but that's a whole other issue).

I was complaining about him not being more hands on to her once and she snapped: "Well, at least he doesn't hit you. My ex used to beat me up or rape me twice a week!". I just felt so gobsmacked and sorry for her, that she honestly thought that a relationship that didn't involve violence was as good as it gets and that I should do more than my share without a murmur and be grateful for any "help" I get.

Poor woman. She thinks that running around after FIL is brilliant after her ex.

Cantthink, you are right, it is patronising.

Men always 'babysit' don't they?

I think women are their own worst enemy here. I don't have any DC yet but my friends (of friends really) attitudes beggar belief. They are the sole carers and occasionally their partners help out. Occasionally. Nursery drop offs and pick ups are always their domain and the kids are never picked up by dad. If DC falls ill and needs to be picked up from nursery c it's mum who leaves work to do it. The fact DC also has a dad that could pick them up never occurs to mum. Women in my team at work see just as bad. "Oh DP's boss won't let him out of work..." Has DP even asked his boss? I can't imagine any of them would ever consider dad taking some time off work for child rearing. The very very rare occasion these women need their DPs to pick their children up after work, the men almost always let them down. And the women just shrug their shoulders.

This shit will not fly when DP and I seed.

It drives me bananas.

Tellybug- Maybe its the younger generation of dads are way more hands on but in our nursery dads in their teens/20s are always picking the kids up.Men are always on their own in town with young children.I think more men are hands on than not nowadays.

Since DS was born we've heard this lots. It drives DH more mad than me, it's demeaning to both the mother and father.

BeeBee these are young men I'm talking about.

But why should they bother if mum is a mug and does it all herself?

Yes I have seen this in action many times. Men praised, although not usually to their faces, for doing tasks that women do and nobody comments.

Because women are "supposed to" do these things and be good mothers; whereas fathers are somehow being heroic for doing exactly the same.

And TellyBug many women object loudly to their male partners doing little with housework and childcare, although not all. But sometimes the only solution a woman has is to leave her male partner or put up with the situation. Of course it doesnt make for a happy relationship, but it is not easy to leave if you are a mother with young children.

Recently we went on holiday. One morning DH took our baby down to breakfast so I could lie in for an hour (after I'd got up, fed the baby changed him etc so not actually a lie in and had been up numerous times in the night which he hadnt but y'know). You'd have sworn he deserved a father of the year award the way the staff and other holiday makers reacted.

this is really interesting and winds me up massivley despite the fact that I'm sure I will have done it myself AND the fact that I do more housework and child related things than DH. It is so ingrained. I just hope we can counter this before my DS and DD grow up.

Related - recently I ahve noticed that DH and DS go off and do "boy" things while DD and I stay at home and do "girl" things, well "wife" things. This has grown out of DH taking DS out to burn off some energy while I had a lazier day with baby DD. But she's older now and so we actually have to work to reverse that. DH is starting to take them both rock climbing and is trying to teach her to ride a bike so he can take both of them out cycling.

I live in an area where men often do this I know a fair few singke dads with full custody and other than an odd few most are confident going out on their own with kids.No one here thinks its impressive,its just normal