Should it be illegal for men to pay for prostitution?

[EatsBrainsAndLeaves]

Should we criminalise all men who pay for prostitution, alongside help for women to leave prostituion?

£40 per shag in London? Not bad for 3 minutes work.

Not all prostitutes are Belle du Jour and not all prostitutes have been trafficked into it. I am guessing that many are in it because of 'choice through lack of choice' discussed below. But that is a choice nonetheless and one that makes sense for that person who is free to leave at any time but chooses not to do so.

I can see why some women would turn to prostitution if they do not have skills to do anything else and have a need to make a quick buck. I don't know if it is £40 or £400 per session, probably somewhere in between, but it is still a lot more than minimum wage. I don't see a compelling need for punters to be criminalised.

I am not sure what projecting punter-hate onto reality is intended to achieve except make this thread rather shouty.

Seriously, though, I've always wondered about this "prostitutes selling themselves" lark. I sell myself. I sell my body and my mind each and every day. I suppose some, maybe even most sex workers don't enjoy their job all the time, but then, surely that applies to almost every occupation. But then, I suppose some do, again, like in every occupation.

Because, blue, if the punters think about for even one second, they know there is a very real chance they are abusing young girls. Just a cursory look at the reliable statistics tells us that. Realitychecks and his ilk are - certainly at risk of- abusing young girls that look 25 but are actually 13 (realitychecks own words).

"No, I can't imagine being in that position? Can you? "

Yes I can, that's my point. As a woman I am well aware of the precariousness of my position. If you look through history the vast majority of prostitutes have been women who have found themselves in very hard times.

You can convince yourself otherwise but every time you sleep with a prostitute you are sleeping with a person whose consent is not freely given, it is bought. How can you even enjoy sex with someone who isn't consenting freely?

My neighbour was a prostitute. She came to despise the men that went to her. She hated them for their weaknesses and she wanted to get out for the sake of her kids (she'd lost custody) but found it hard because she thought that sex was all she had to offer. She had suffered a lot of psychological stuff that made her believe that her worth was the sex she had to give. It made her a very hard person. To view the world in such a cynical way, to see yourself as a product, I can't imagine how damaging that is. After I moved I lost touch with her but I hope she managed to get her wish.

No it shouldn't
If a woman chooses to do that then that's her choice.

You can't tell someone what to do with their own body.

What about male prostitutes?? Are they allowed because they are male?

'very real chance' - Is this true? Or an exaggeration. That is the million dollar question. Are most or even many prostitutes 13?

It is documented (eatsbrains and plenty have posted the links).

Why the emphasis on age? Are you saying that when a girl reaches 18 she is a different person? That what constitutes as abuse of a child, suddenly becomes ok the moment she reaches 18? Is she still not vulnerable, not subject to the same circumstances, complex or simple, that led her to prostitution in the first place?

And on reality's argument - he totally removed any responsibilty on the punter as to the establishment of the the age of the prostitute. He said that if she was 15 but looked 25 then it wasn't the punters fault. That is blinkered if ever I heard it!

messy, any emphasis on age does not come from me. I was responding in the context of running's post.

Running, you say it is 'documented'. What does that mean exactly. Is the 'documentation' reliable and unbiased, is my question.

" I suppose some, maybe even most sex workers don't enjoy their job all the time, but then, surely that applies to almost every occupation"

If you were an Alaskan salmon fisherman you could make that point, but otherwise it's best to remember that prostitution is one of the most dangerous professions in the world, with a very high comparative chance of being murdered or contracting physical disease.

So, no, it's not just another day at the office. Not a regular occupation.

So a bit like being in the police or armed forces

Well you could try actually reading them blue.

But to answer your question they are reliable. Theyz upthtread.

Maybe, I would have once said not but, but... interesting quote from Lydia Cacho, a Mexican journalist who has written a book on sex trafficking - interviewed in the Guardian the other day(www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/sep/01/lydia-cacho-mexican-journalist-interview ) - Before she started the investigation, Cacho says she was open to the idea of legalising and regulating prostitution, and had listened to many academics and feminists who advocated it. "Then the more I travelled, and the more women I interviewed, the more worried I got," she says. "I'm absolutely convinced that all forms of prostitution are just a way of normalising gender discrimination and violence against women, and women are 'trained' to become prostitutes because they are objects in a society that wants to have ghettoes of women who can be raped."

"So a bit like being in the police or armed forces"
Without the status, respect or recognition.

Prostitutes have been outcasts.

Realitychecker I think I might have sussed your alias on another site.

Did you come on here to let rip at us?

Some of us have lives you know apart from children. Mumsnet may be sad to some, but at least its a varied forum, unlike those frequented by 'punters'. A whole forum dedicated to paying for sex with women who don't fancy the men that pay them.

Hmmm. Give me life any day. Having sex with someon who loves and fancies me. A job that I don't always love but doesn't involve sex with strangers

Running, I am not so sure of the reliability or neutrality of the 'documentation'.

One of the links posted by plenty is to a study of 103 men (not a particularly large sample) sponsored by Eaves which is described in the paper as 'Eaves is a feminist organisation committed to working to curb demand for commercial sex acts, which increase sex trafficking and organised crime in general'. I would not call Eaves as being without an agenda.

The second link was to a Home Office consultation paper but into street-based prostitution, which is a particularly sad area of prostitution but nonetheless not representative of the different ways in which prostitution is conducted.

Messy, the point is not whether prostitution is a dangerous or results in the worker being ostracised (not whether it is like an office job). It might very be that. The point is whether the prostitute has a choice to leave it, if they do not like it.

No one on this thread disagrees that forced prostitution is wrong. But where a prostitute has a choice to leave and does not, why should someone else with apparent concern for their safety and/or morals take the choice away from them?

Should we criminalise all men [+ women] who pay for prostitution- NO (reasons in next post)

Should help women [+ men] leave prostituion? - YES, if that's what they want

-consenting adults should not be told what they can and can't do with their own bodies in their own privacy

-prostitution has been around for a very long time in every part of the world. It is not called "the world's oldest profession" for nothing. Love it or hate it is is here to stay for a long time to come.

-prostitution can be a valuable outlet for clients who find it difficult to find sex otherwise because they may be disabled, unattractive or socially inept. Prostitution can also be an outlet for clients who just want sex without the difficulties or hassle that may come with a one night stand or a relationship.

-prohibition doesn't always work (have laws stopped people smoking weed? Have laws stopped people downloading copyrighted music from the internet?)

-prostitution is going to happen anyway legal or not, criminalization of a product/service leads to it being pushed underground

-UK prisons are overcrowded and we do not need to clog up the system sentencing adults who engaged in consensual sex. We should be looking at ways to keep people out of prison, not put more people in prison.

-criminalization will lead to more stigma therefore sex workers could be respected even less

-Sex workers and clients will be less likely to be regularly tested for STIs if it is illegal

-A law criminalizing prostitution will not prevent prostitutes from being assaulted or murdered. If someone does not care about the consequences of murder he is obviously not going to care about the consequences of breaking any other law.

-prostitution is possibly safer now than it has been in the past thanks to the internet. Sex workers can "screen" clients who make a booking and can make the choice on whether to accept the booking. There are feedback systems and forums used to warn sex workers about abusive clients to avoid.

-statistics on trafficking can be inaccurate and even intentionally exaggerated:
www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/oct/20/trafficking-numbers-women-exaggerated

-Noone knows the prostition industry better than prostitutes themselves, yet prostitutes are often not listened to when it comes to changing laws on prostutition. Some politicians seem to believe they are qualified to speak on behalf of sex workers.

-Some people argue the "Swedish model" criminalizing clients only is the best solution. Please have a look at the link below which has taken Swedish sex workers' opinions into consideration:
www.petraostergren.com/pages.aspx?r_id=40716

-Here is an article by Swedish media which initially suggests the law has been a "success" before suggesting prostitution has simply moved off the streets and onto the internet:
www.thelocal.se/27580/20100703/

-Despite the swedish laws (and over 10 years to enforce them), contact details for escorts in the captial Stockholm can be easily found by a quick Google search. This suggests it just isn't possible to censor the internet and prevent sex workers from advertising.

-An interesting and recent report here by United Nations-backed Global Commission on HIV and the Law (there is a section on prostitution including the "Swedish model"):
www.hivlawcommission.org/resources/report/FinalReport-Risks,Rights&Health-EN.pdf

btw if anyone's wondering how much it costs in the UK, it is usually between £100 and £200 to spend 1 hour with a legitimate call girl/escort. For escorts money is paid for time only sex is not guaranteed.

How does that wage compare to McDonalds?

@blueshoes "The second link was to a Home Office consultation paper but into street-based prostitution, which is a particularly sad area of prostitution but nonetheless not representative of the different ways in which prostitution is conducted. "

Street prostitution is already illegal in the UK, and is a lot different (and more dangerous IMO) than indoor prostitution.

"" I suppose some, maybe even most sex workers don't enjoy their job all the time, but then, surely that applies to almost every occupation"

If you were an Alaskan salmon fisherman you could make that point, but otherwise it's best to remember that prostitution is one of the most dangerous professions in the world, with a very high comparative chance of being murdered or contracting physical disease.

So, no, it's not just another day at the office. Not a regular occupation. "

Fishing in Alaska is inherently dangerous, prostitution is only dangerous because we allow it to be by stigmatising it