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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Should it be illegal for men to pay for prostitution?

999 replies

EatsBrainsAndLeaves · 31/08/2012 11:13

Should we criminalise all men who pay for prostitution, alongside help for women to leave prostituion?

OP posts:
JuliaScurr · 02/09/2012 11:16

Bingo!

disabled - check
choice - check
empowered - check

FactOfTheMatter · 02/09/2012 12:08

moral supremacists? Sorry, what?

Hmm

MN needs an eye roll smiley

SuffolkNWhat · 02/09/2012 16:30

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

amothersplaceisinthewrong · 02/09/2012 16:35

It would never work, it's not called the oldest profession for nothing. I personally think it should be legalised, taxed, healthchecks offered.

OldLadyKnowsNothing · 02/09/2012 16:55

It doesn't need to be legalised, it's already legal.

PlentyOfPubeGardens · 02/09/2012 17:02

Seems to be working quite well in Sweden, amother. Not perfect, but it's had a massive impact on the amount of trade, trafficking levels and on public attitudes.

I suspect it's called 'the oldest profession' to stop people from trying to imagine an alternative.

realitychecker · 02/09/2012 18:24

Ok, here goes. Firstly prostitution is already covered by a huge amount of legislation. Street prostitution is already completely illegal. It's illegal to run a brothel or an escort agency, or for any 3rd party to "control" another person's prostitution. Control does not mean "You will do as I say or get a slap", it can simply be taking a phone call, making the appt and confirming prices, and then passing that on to the girl. It's also illegal, since 2009, to pay for sex with a person who is "forced, threatened, deceived or otherwise coerced into prostitution". This is a strict liability offence so they don't need to prove you knew, or even could know, her situation. The only situation where no law is currently broken is where one adult privately arranges to have sex with another adult in return for money.

Point being that in a situation where there is a victim, the punter can be prosecuted. The only situation in which a new law as suggested here would be of any use, is in prosecuting men for having consensual sex with another consenting adult simply because they paid. I think it's slightly sinister that you can all suggest that you know best and because YOU couldn't imagine doing that for a job that the poor girl doesn't know what she's doing and you should unilaterally declare her a victim.

Here's my response to a few of your points on here......

  1. No man has a right to sex.....fair enough, but two consenting adults have a right to have sex with each other under whatever terms suit them both. I'm an adult, she's an adult. She wants money, I want sex. What business is it of yours to interfere? As I said above if she's a "victim" in any sense, the man(client) can ALREADY be prosecuted. You are targeting consensual sex ONLY. 2)Someone here claimed that an Australian woman was denied benefits because she refused work in a brothel. I want you all to take a real long look at how biased and prejudiced you all are that you readily accepted this as fact. Do you REALLY think that the Australian gov't would force women into prostitution!!! This is a western, modern country with a female prime minister (Julia Gillard) yet you're all happy to believe, since it fits your pre-existing bias against prostitution, that they'll deny benefits to a woman unless she accepts a job in a brothel... 3)Another poster (EatsBrainsLeaves or something like that) claimed that the average age for entry into prostitution is 14. This is a lie. Or rather it's a truth for a single survey of STREET prostitutes (and, I believe, only those who'd entered prostitution below 18). It is nothing to do with prostitution as a whole. It's actually the average age for an underage street prostitute's first time. It's self selecting - the age is guaranteed to be low. It's rather like going into a battered women's refuge and then coming out with statistics on the average marriage based on those interviews.

Carrying on from point 3. Denis MacShane MP famously claimed that 25,000 women were trafficked into the UK every year. Again it shows his bias and the bias of all those who accepted it, that this ridiculous figure was accepted for so long. Fiona MacTaggart went on a radio show claiming 90% of prostitutes were pimped. Her PA was asked to send a source for this and she sent a 1982 study on San Francisco street prostitutes!!! Fiona MacTaggart was quick to point out she hadn't asked her PA to send that in, but notably didn't reveal any other sources for this claim either.

There is a huge amount of misinformation repeated by those with agendas against prostitution. They claim they're against it due to the trafficking. But that's already illegal and there's trafficking in all industries. People are trafficked to work in restaurants or as servants/home helps, or to work in fields picking leeks, to work on beaches picking cockles like those at Morecambe bay. Children are brought here as professional beggar's accessories (witness the Romanian gypsies who use them as emotional blackmail). There are people enslaved wherever slave labour will make someone some money. Prostitution is no different. Apart from the fact people with agendas who simply don't like the idea of a man being able to buy sex from a woman use the trafficking issue to suggest the whole thing should be made illegal.

Target the areas where there's a victim. John Mann MP recently said that the police had trouble getting the evidence to prove trafficking and that therefore it would help to make the whole thing illegal.....Well why not pass a law against breathing, that way whenever the police are having trouble getting that pesky evidence stuff they can just arrest you anyway.

It's time for people to admit it's nothing to do with "victims" or trafficking, it's just the fact that they find it immoral and distasteful and they want to enforce their morals on others....

runningforthebusinheels · 02/09/2012 19:37

Yes. I would agree with the Swedish model too.

I see the ever-inadequate punterprats have invaded this thread- it was a blue moon last night though, so maybe to be expected.

realitychecker · 02/09/2012 19:52

I'm so sorry Runningforthe.....I do apologise for pointing out that the statistics and anecdotes on this discussion are factually inaccurate, and for pointing out that the only people who could be arrested as a result of new legislation are those engaged in consensual sex with another adult. Please, if you disagree with this or would like to explain why, when two consenting adults have decided to exchange money for sex, one of them should be arrested I'd love to hear it. Especially if you can do it without relying on sexual slavery (which is already illegal) and without basically admitting that further legislation would be enforcing your morals on other people.

runningforthebusinheels · 02/09/2012 20:11

If you're apologising for the load of tosh you posted on here, then apology accepted Reality. Now do toddle off.

realitychecker · 02/09/2012 21:24

please give an example of the "load of tosh" I posted. I pointed to several pieces of mis-information posted by your colleagues, and just as another free gift I'd like to question the statement at the top of this page by Eatsbrainsandleaves (again!!!) who rather dogmatically states that it is only a tiny minority of women who choose to be in prostitution....either she's a big liar and making it up on the spot as it fits with her moral judgments, or the police are massively, and incomparably incompetent in only being able to find a handful of forced women each year.

So, given the "load of tosh" that I've pointed out, could you please return the favour and specifically point out anything I've said that is untrue....

PlentyOfPubeGardens · 02/09/2012 21:28

I think you'll find the mansplaining thread is >>>> that way

realitychecker · 02/09/2012 21:40

I see your logic now - you can't actually argue that Australian women have to work in brothels or starve. You can't actually find a shred of evidence that prostitutes are 14 when they first start. You can't actually find any evidence that the vast majority of women are forced to be prostitutes. You can't disagree that Denis MacShane and Fiona MacTaggart (and a load of others I must point out) spread a load of rubbish to further their moral ideals. And you can't disagree that the only people that could possibly be arrested with the new offence you suggest, are men having sex with willing women. So instead you'll call me a "mansplainer" and you'll all have a giggle and wallow in your righteousness without having to think about what you're saying or whether it even makes sense.

So sorry for assuming you wanted a reasoned and balanced debate.

runningforthebusinheels · 02/09/2012 21:45

No one here wants to debate with punternetters. Your whole post was tosh Reality. HTH.

runningforthebusinheels · 02/09/2012 21:50

Is there such a thing as puntersplaining? Grin

FactOfTheMatter · 02/09/2012 21:51

" think about what you're saying or whether it even makes sense."

Oh the irony.

PlentyOfPubeGardens · 02/09/2012 21:53
Grin
blueshoes · 02/09/2012 22:14

How is what reality posted 'tosh'?

No one has offered any explanation. On the contrary, reality's post seems one of the most rational and least emotive.

FactOfTheMatter · 02/09/2012 22:30

Several of realitychecker's points are irrelevant:
There's a snopes link posted on p2 which debunks the stuff about Australian laws.
The age of starting was also discussed and there have been references to more than one study, showing a range of ages.

Realitychecker has 'challenged' several points without providing evidence to the contrary.

The suggestion that anyone's trying to "enforce" their morals on others would be laughable were it not so chilling.

runningforthebusinheels · 02/09/2012 23:01

Plus he's a punter (prob from punternet) so he is predictably biased. Wants to perpetuate the happy hooker myth.

OldLadyKnowsNothing · 02/09/2012 23:04

On the other hand, he might have actually been in a brothel and talked to the women working there, how many others can say the same? (I can't.)

runningforthebusinheels · 02/09/2012 23:09

Yes, and of course a punter will always hear the truth from a prostitute he is paying in a brothel.

But that wasn't actually his line of argument.

hedidit · 03/09/2012 07:31

I think runningforthebushes is either a man posting on here and knows his wife is on here too or he is in fact one of the MANY prostitutes already on this site because they are mums and is desperatley trying to show just how "anti" he/she is to cover their tracks. Me thinks the lady/man doth protest too much Hmm

realitychecker · 03/09/2012 18:20

Runningfor....

You've actually made a good point. Your argument is the same one that we, the punters, were making when the most recent legislation was passed in 2009. Namely the new offence of paying a person who is forced, threatened, deceived or otherwise coerced into prostitution. Which is strict liability i.e. it doesn't matter if you knew or not. The point is that it's impossible to know; even the police themselves are not necessarily going to get the truth. A forced prostitute has reasons to lie to the punter since she doesn't want him walking out the door (pissing off her pimp) which the punter obviously will do if she admits she's forced etc. However, a willing prostitute may lie to the police since she's in the country illegally, she thinks she's breaking the law, and she thinks the police are like those in her home country and will be absolute bastards. She may think they'll go easier on her....

The point being that uniquely for a strict liability offence you go to court and nobody really knows for certain whether the girl is forced. She told the punter one thing, and now she's telling the police and the court another.

This is NOT me saying all the girls who claim to be trafficked sex slaves are liars. I'm just pointing out that they could, and it's only their word that the whole offence is based upon.

You have the ridiculous situation whereby if you're caught in bed with a 13 year old (but willing) prostitute you can say she looked 18 to me, and the police have to prove you didn't reasonably believe her to be over 18. Otherwise you're scot-free. But if you're caught with a 25 year old who was tricked into working as a hooker, you're hung out to dry, no excuses accepted. Even though checking ID is easy, but checking "willingness" is a flip of the coin.

Also I'm not trying to perpetuate the "happy hooker" myth. I'm not claiming there are no sex slaves. There clearly are. Just as there are those who are forced to work in houses as domestic servants. There are also those like Dr Brooke Magnanti a.k.a Belle de Jour, who go into the business voluntarily and make a lot of money. Neither is a myth, they're simply opposing extremes of the same industry. The majority are somewhere in between and yes, a lot may hate their jobs and want to get out as soon as possible and would much prefer a nice office job, but they don't for the same reason I don't quit my job (which I hate) - because they need the money. And the nice office job doesn't pay quite as well. They're adults. They know about Tescos, and could get a job for £7.50 an hour or whatever it is that Tescos pay and work a 45 hour week. Or they could work part time/full time, as they want to work, and get £150 per hour, or even 200/300+ if they're in London and young/pretty/slim etc.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1155502/Suspicious-teacher-exposes-double-life-girl-15-earning-100-000-year-upmarket-prostitute.html

Now this link - whilst clearly an underage girl, and a victim, this girl was nevertheless working for herself for her own misguided reasons. She kept the money she made. Working part-time after school and at weekends she had £8000 in the loft and the police, based on what I don't know, believe she actually earned £14,000 in the 3 months she worked.

So that explains why (adult, willing) women get into the business, and why it's rather simplistic and naive to say that they need help to get out of it. I've met loads of women who tell me they're working for a year or two to get the money to buy a house or set up a business back in their own country and they're not unaware of other jobs, it's just that the other jobs don't pay £100,000 a year part-time. Which is what a slim, attractive girl under 25 could easily earn.

carmenelectra · 03/09/2012 19:48

Urgh realitycheck,is that what you go for? Under 25,slim and pretty. And I bet you are about 50 and married.

Plenty of people don't like their jobs and stick with it for the money. True. Most peoples jobs dont involve them taking their clothes off and letting strangers touch them$ or having to pretend to enjoy touching them.

How can you enjoy sex knowing the woman is only doing it for cash and wouldn't touch you with a bargepole otherwise?