Should it be illegal for men to pay for prostitution?

[EatsBrainsAndLeaves]

Should we criminalise all men who pay for prostitution, alongside help for women to leave prostituion?

carmen I'll take your word for it because it's not really a website I want to visit, or really defend.

But I do think that a casual observer might well come to some negative conclusions about women's attitudes towards men from reading some of the more fervent forums on MN.

I'd think by default anyone on Punternet is not in a happy relationship.

You're right sabrina.
Getmorenappies I too agree, to anyone just dibbing into mumsnet and certain topics/threads it would look we are all a bunch of frigid men haters. People need to remember though that the site is huge and there are many, many topics not connected to men, sex or relationships.

This is the most depressing thread I have read in a long time. I had to stop half way through because I can't get my head around the fact that men from a site which rates women's bodies as commodities think it is appropriate to come over to a women's rights forum and make their case. WTF?

To the OP, I think men buying sex should be criminalised. For as long as they are not, men's access/entitlement to women's bodies is tacitly (overtly?) accepted, a point which underpins gendered social inequalities. That sense of entitlement is manifest in some of the (depressing) comments from punters on here.

And FWIW, I'm not a frigid man-hater, I'm just bloody glad that not all men are like the pond scum posting on this thread. Ewwww.

"For as long as they are not, men's access/entitlement to women's bodies is tacitly (overtly?) accepted, a point which underpins gendered social inequalities. That sense of entitlement is manifest in some of the (depressing) comments from punters on here"

You clearly haven't read all the posts properly, otherwise, you would realise that neither the punters or the working girls who have posted on here think that they tacitly or overtly have "rights" to each others bodies. What they do, however, advocate is that a woman has the right to choose to do with her body as she will (i.e. if a woman has the right to say "no" she also has the right to say "yes"). I appreciate the argument from the other side that some/ most women may not be making that choice voluntarily as they are trafficked, into drugs/ drink, coerced by others etc. and, therefore, prostitution should be banned.

However, what really annoys me about some of the posters on here is how they try to twist/ distort what has been said just because the posters are in their warped view "pond scum" and "Ewww". As if, if we are truly scum of the earth, shit on their shoes, lowlife; behaving that way is going to make us think or behave any differently. If we aren't meant to be posting on here then ban us (I haven't got a problem with it: just shows arrogance in my view). Otherwise, we have as much right to post on here as you have.

That said, something I do wonder about is why feminists who say they are trying to protect prostitutes from us scum, refuse to talk or listen to the prostitutes themselves when they want to get involved with the debate? I appreciate that not all women on here are in their own view "feminists" (and I don't think that a dirty word btw) and I may not, therefore, get an answer to this. However, why when feminists do have meetings will they not agree to prostitutes with a different view to theirs attending that meeting? Whatever the case, thanks to the admin and the op for the thread which is interesting.

interestedpunter . I've been on MN on and off for around three years and the debating style of some, misquotes and twisting words, is quite familiar. At least in my experience.

I can never work out if they're deliberately trying to wind people up , or they've just run out of arguments. Both possably.

I think it's important to have two sides to a debate.

It seems like there are a number of posters wanting to be demagogues on here getmorenappies. Thankfully; I managed to ignore them up until my first post

Do you think the men on punternet are being respectful to women though, interestedpunter?

I think a website where men rate women and speak about all women in that way (on the thread about MN, all women were talked about, not just prostitutes) is not treating them as equals. I can't see how a man who types away on punternet like that, who uses and rates prostitutes like that, can possibly see a woman, for example, that he works with, as an equal.

Again - please don't twist what I said. You can treat me with as much or as little respect (I get the feeling it is the latter) as you like. All I say to treating people with little respect (whether it happens on punternet or here) is that it does not get anybody anywhere.

My point was that I would like to read a rational debate - not one which twists/ distorts what each side of the debate is saying because they are so emotive about the issue that they do not listen to each other. That's all.

Blueshoes it might be sad to frame the decision about fish fingers or sausages for tea in terms of the patriarchy. But a discussion about prostitution in which the patriarchy was unmentionable would be like discussing different pay rates for Caucasian and African workers without reference to racism.

On the subject of Punternet rating womens bodies; we do the same thing in sports and in beauty contests.

My ex girlfriend used to go to beauty contests and she enjoyed it greatly. She trained 6 days a week to look good and took it very seriously. There are many escorts who train very hard to keep their figures and have incredible sexual expertise which they are not shy on showing off.

One persons shamefull display is another persons idea of hard work and determination.

Interestedpunter- it was a genuine question about the things I read on punternet- nothing has been twisted, and I wasn't referring to your post here ( but welcome to mumsnet). I was talking about how punternet was talking about all women. The field reports have to be seen to be believed- and do not talk about women as though they are equal human beings.

Oh, and mentioning other ways women are 'judged' and treated as prize cattle in society doesnt make it all right.

Sabrina, are you against sports and beauty contests?

Did you boycott the Olympics because of all those poor women in tight pants?

I don't use the punternet reviews and only glanced at them once or twice without taking much note. I'll have a look later and come back to you. However, if you can, I would be grateful if you would please elaborate on what you mean by they "do not talk about women as though they are equal human beings" i.e. do you mean that the reviews themselves talk about women in any way which is offensive (if so, please direct me to some examples), that rating women is offensive or both?

TBH I don't think as a male punter I am going to be able to give as valued an answer as one of the female WG's on here (who I think are better placed to judge alongside you) and am, therefore, not sure why you are asking me that question out of the blue - hence my reaction when you asked it.

Generally speaking though I believe that we live in a society where there are sexist attitudes. You may well be right that the rating system on punternet or the comments in themselves are sexist, however, that is just symptomatic of the society in which we live - what is your point?

I would like to talk about what was written by men (thankfully, by a small minority of men).

This thread is about prostitution, punternetters have invaded it- presumably to try and tell feminists the error of their ways.

What I read on punternet was not remotely respectful to women - how do you reconcile talking about women in that way with your real- life treatment of women?

PlentyOfPubesGarden there are, to be fair, quite a few threads in Relationships from women feeling they should be getting more sex.

Oddly enough, if it is a man feeling like he's missing out, he's an entitled bastard who doesn't appreciate his wife; if it's a woman missing out, the bloke is gay, or passive-aggressive, controlling.

Married men(or those in LTR) shouldn't have affairs or go to prostitutes. [women neither]. If they are single, and can find someone who is happy to shag them for money, good luck to both of them I guess. [I understand there are female punters too]

I am not punternet. Every punter is different and has different views (many of which they don't share on punternet). Even every punter on punternet is different and has different views on punternet (just like mumsnet I guess). I can not talk for punternet as whole or the way women are spoken about on there. You may crticise the way I treat women if you knew me (or just because I am a punter) and I might be able to comment on that. I am sorry I can't give you a more definitive answer but I just don't think the way I treat women relates very much to punternet.

Xposted there- no I'm not posting examples of what I read on PN on the feminist board, sorry. Anyone who wants to see it can seek it out themselves ( but I would advise you not to!)

It is however, nice to have a punter on here admit that we live in a sexist society- normally people go out of their way to tell feminists that they've got the vote now, so their work is done...

BTW I do not wish to tell feminists anything, I am sure I won't change their views and just want to understand the objections that they have.

Read the thread then- there's 14 pages of objections. You just don't consider them valid reasons because you are a punter.

Likewise, there is 14 pages of reasons why the purchase of sex should not be made illegal which you choose to ignore because you are a radical feminist or just a narrow minded moralists who wants to impose her views on everyone else(choose either - I prefer the latter) - we could go on like this forever if you like

PlentyOfPubesGarden there are, to be fair, quite a few threads in Relationships from women feeling they should be getting more sex.

This is true (although I've never seen a woman post that she 'should' be getting more sex, just that she'd 'like' more sex) but in all the threads I've read where this is the situation, the couple just end up not having as much sex as the woman wants (or else she leaves to find a more satisfying relationship). When it's the other way round, it's really common for the bloke to be nagging, cajoling or pressurising her until she ends up having sex she doesn't really want, just to keep the peace. Or else he wanks over pictures of other women's bodies or uses a prostitute.

She would like more sex, he thinks he's entitled to more sex. That's the difference I notice in those threads.

And, I should add, thankfully there are loads of men who are not like that at all.

Yes, quite, interested. It's called a discussion, or a debate.

You came on here with a question, I directed you to the answer- bit as I said, you won't agree because you're a punter.

You directly quoted one very good answer to your own question.

My take on the debate , and I'm neither a feminist or a punter, was that Reality won it pretty much hands down. As a debate. As in posing and answering questions and points.

Once people start saying 'i'm not going to talk to the nasty man anymore' it's all over.