Should it be illegal for men to pay for prostitution?

[EatsBrainsAndLeaves]

Should we criminalise all men who pay for prostitution, alongside help for women to leave prostituion?

I have no moral objection to women/people being prostitutes. I have political objections to men paying to use someone's body as a wank sock. To argue that this has no effects outside of the people directly involved is ridiculous

By impossible, I meant full omniscient knowledge of a girl's circumstances. But I could stop paying for sex as easily as I could stop using my car. You could cope just fine too. But you accept that you can't know if something's snapped in the wrong place and that your car could be dangerous to others because you don't want to be without it. It's not impossible, it would just be a huge inconvenience so you accept the small risk you pose.

Julia it's none of your business, some people are abhorred by gay sex and feel it affect them...but they're rightly told to mind their own...

Driving a car is in no way comparable to paying another human being for sex. All your silly and false analogies make you sound defensive.

You don't want to be a male prostitute - but its completely fine for you subject another human being to unwanted sex. To use women as a commodity- as something to be bought and sold. It's the demand for sex by men like you (and you are very much in the minority - it's generally thought to be 1 in10 men who use prostitutes) that create the demand for women to be trafficked and abused- to be seen as cash cows, not human beings by sex traffickers.

You're right, I'm not risking killing someone by paying for sex. Huge difference. It's unwanted in your opinion, I know what the word "no" sounds like and given that the number of convictions for kidnap/false imprisonment related to prostitution in the UK over the last ten years can be counted on one hand, I'm not at ang real risk.

Any real risk.

Driving a car is no comparison though- however you feeling entitled to buy other peoples orifices creates the very market in which other women are trafficked and abused. You seem to think your transaction takes place in a vacuum - it doesn't. It is demand for paid sex that creates the attitude that women's bodies are something to be bought and sold - something that a trafficker can profit from.

You don't see inside the minds of the the women you pay for - and you have never been able to answer the question of how you can have sex with someone who doesn't want it- who maybe coerced for whatever reason. Ridiculous analogies about driving and indian takeaways don't work.

realitychecker,can I ask you a serious question? Do you not feel embarrassed or ashamed that the women that you pay for sex are only pretending to enjoy it? (Most probably)

Even if you are not fat n ugly she is acting that she wants to do it. I could not enjoy sex with a gorgeous man if the only reason he was there is because I'd given him money.
And please don't say men and women are different. And that We need love to enjoy sex because that's untrue. I've had casual relationships too but they were based on mutual attraction.

Do you not enjoy sex more knowing that the woman really fancies you as much as she fancies you, or is it just about sexual fantasies?

Reality OK, you aren't a prostitute, but speaking hypothetically, suppose your life fell apart, you were diagnosed with a chronic illness, lost your job, were evicted from your home and found yourself sleeping in a shop doorway. As you lie there shivering in your sleeping bag, a business man in a nice suit comes along and propositions you - in those circumstances how much would you charge to be anally penetrated?

Just to clarify, I probably could have got away with claiming to be under the age of sixteen when I was seventeen.
The men I saw were looking for someone who looked young.

I used the car analogy because you were saying that paid sex should be illegal as I can't be 100% sure of the girl's age. So I was trying to point out that this is not required anywhere else. Most offences require mens rea (latin legal term) meaning awareness...not of the law, you can be ignorant of that and be charged. But they have to show, even in murder/rape/theft and just about everything else that you were aware you were doing the illegal act. Yet you are requiring, despite the extreme rareness of sexual slavery, that I be 100% sure or accept complete illegality. The only difference in the car/paid sex analogy is your lack of moral objections to driving a car. It's because of this that you attack prostitution, not because of any statistical likelihood that the girl will be 15, or beaten into submission by a pimp. Just a moral/feminist objection, which is fine if you didn't keep trying to exaggerate the trafficking issue to support it.

Like carmenelectra, I am really struggling with how a decent human being could enjoy sex with a woman who had no desire for him at all and was faking it through gritted teeth for the money. I can't imagine a more soul-shrinking experience.

However - clearly there are many men who enjoy committing violence and particularly sexual violence on women, partly no doubt because it enables them to feel more powerful while physically expressing their rage and contempt towards women. Presumably the same horrible dynamics are in play with attitudes towards prostituted women.

Sod that Reality - forget your stupid analogies - They are quite meaningless.

I want to hear your answers to carmen's and saskia's questions.

I wouldn't say "through gritted teeth" is a fair description, I have no desire to pump away at a sack of spuds nor do I enjoy committing sexual violence. They behave as if they're my girlfriend, I generally stick to girls who are well established and reviewed and that means they don't grit their teeth, visibly, and I just accept them for how they behave towards me.

Deluded.

Thanks for your answer, realitychecker.

In what way do they behave as though they're your girlfriend? In reality their freedom of behaviour must be very limited - they can't exactly ask you to stop because they need to go to sleep, suggest improvements to your sexual technique or indeed have a nice chat about your life together afterwards.

In all honesty I don't believe realitychecker does pay for sex because he enjoys being violent to women. I really think think that he(and most men who pay for sex)just don't 'mind' if the woman is pretending. The fact is that there is an attractive women willing to provide the sexual services they want is enough to convince them its ok.

Whereas most people would feel mortified at the thought of making someone have sex for money, those that pay don't have that mindset. Just the idea that some gorgeous woman advertises that she does x,y or z for 100 pounds means that she is fine with it. And I do believe many prostitutes are fine with. I am not denying that there aren't women that are trafficked, pimps etc but there are plenty that aren't.
I hate to bleat on about the vile 'punting' forums but they have many women posters sucking up to the guys. Independent escorts who haven't got some pimp behind them telling them to post messages. They are doing it of their own frEe will.

What I don't buy though is these prostitutes saying how they enjoy the sex with these clients. They are tolerating it for the good money it brings. Perhaps there is a miniscule proportion that get a kick out of any bloke that walks through the door, but that's all it is. And the stupid men fall for their acting and don't realise the women are either silently grimacing at some sweaty bloke mauling her or taking the piss out of him behind his back.

Yes, I am sure it feels very like your having the time of your life and so is she, Reality.
The fact is that not only are prostitutes paid for sex, they are also paid for their acting skills.
Unless of course you happen to meet a client who wants to see the reality of your experience, that you don't enjoy it. Which does also happen.

Mooncup, I think he is happy just pretending she is is girlfriend. Though why men like this don't just find a regular girlfriend and enjoy real emotions and enjoy a mutually fufilling sex life I don't know.

I guess its probably that most are looking for girls 'out of their league' either age or beauty wise. I guess once these men can look at websites and choose an ideal woman they are never happy with the woman they might meet down the pu who isn't half their age or a size 8.

Mind you, reality did say he paid for sex in between gf's. Why doesn't he just go without sex. Like most people do??

They don't want real relationships because then they might be expected to take someone else's feelings into account.

Well yes Saskia, that did occur to me as I posted! Anyone who expects their girlfriend to behave as a paid prostitute would might encounter some problems along the way.

I expect you're right, carmen, it is just such an alien and depressing attitude.

Yes, I mean - what if she had opinions of her very own?! Or sometimes felt like an early night with a mug of cocoa instead of servicing 'big boy' ... gosh, that would never do.

Sadly, some of these men really do think its a better option to have paid sex than a real relationships as their belief is that they are paying anyway! Some twisted view that going on a date prelude to sex so they as well skip that bit and get down to the nitty gritty. Particularly interesting is that these men presume they will have to pay and totting up presents as well as dates, then its cheaper!

Don't women these days earn their own cash?! Also isn't buying a gift a gesture of affection not a bribe for sex??
Hmm, in a normal relationship, don't couples both contribute to evenings out and holidays and buy each other gifts out of love!!imagine!

Though, its a bit of a myth that mumsnetters are pampered women who don't work and hubby provides a nice house in return for sexual favours.

Carmen what would that normal relationship be then?

I don't think Carmen mentioned normal relationships (which would be impossible to quantify), she said real relationships, which are self-explanatory.