Police officers & lawyers, I need your wisdom please re brothels

[MrsMcEnroe]

Hello all,

Some background: I own a shop in a part of town that has been grotty and neglected for years but which is now, thanks to a lot of hard work from residents and traders plus a Lottery grant, now starting to regenerate.

Across the road from my shop is a brothel. It is acknowledged as such by the local police. Residents and traders are not happy that the brothel is allowed to continue operating. Most people are worried about the supposed "dodgy blokes" (to quote a recent email, not my words, on the subject) that it brings to the area; however, I have more serious concerns regarding the welfare of the ladies working there. I have seen some of them leaving and they don't look well at all.

I am attending a meeting of the local community forum tomorrow, at which the police, council members and planning officers will tell us what they are doing re the brothel (if anything). I know I've read that prostitutes are at much higher risk of violence, including sexual violence, than other women; does anyone have any facts and figures I could use please? Also, is it even legal to operate a brothel? When I was doing my law degree 20 years ago, I'm sure brothel-keeping came under the heading of living off immoral earnings but perhaps this has changed?? I just want to make the point that there are vulnerable women right there in our midst who, rather than being condemned, should be helped. (I never qualified as a lawyer, hence my lack of current knowledge).

Or am I being naive? Or simplistic?

This post comes cross in a very stilted manner - sorry, I'm typing with 2 fingers with a puppy asleep on my lap!

TIA.

I absolutely agree that "prostituted women", who are by definition victims, should not be criminalised in any way. But what about women who choose to work as prostitutes? Perhaps in a co-op brothel?

"Have you any evidence that co-operative brothels, run by willing prostitutes, are bad for the women involved? When pimps are, by definition, eliminated?"

There is lots of evidence of the sex industry doing whatever it takes to look legitimate- for example brothel/agency owners calling themselves 'sex-workers' and being very vocal about the 'rights' of prostitutes to 'choose' the 'work', (taking full advaantage of the deception created by referring to themselves as 'workers').

I'm sure they'll have a way to frame themselves as part of a shared cooperative of sex-workers too.

That doesn't really answer my question.

Your comment at @1.30 about "stereotyping the desperate rather than attributing them with full humanity" could so easily transpose to those who deny the agency of sexworkers.

The only thing that decriminalising brothels ever achieves is making it more "acceptable" and "mainstream" for men to purchase sexual acts, something which is bad for women as a whole.

The very fact that such schemes ask for the women to be registered, rather then the "customers" shows that it is all about making things easier for men to use women.

Also, I wish people would not come out with "The world's oldest profession", murder is the world's oldest crime and I don't see people trying to make that acceptable.

How bizarre to connect a crime to a job! (Reluctant to say profession, as there are no qualifications required.)

"Your comment at @1.30 about "stereotyping the desperate rather than attributing them with full humanity" could so easily transpose to those who deny the agency of sexworkers."

No it couldn't. It wouldn't make sense. If the said 'sexworkers' are 'desperate' then they are driven by desperation not agency, and to recognise this choicelessness is not denying them their humanity or stereotyping them.

I think treating human beings as fucktoys for hire is criminal.

"How bizarre to connect a crime to a job! (Reluctant to say profession, as there are no qualifications required.)"

There are plenty of career criminals out there.

I think its weird to compare paid sexual abuse to a job!

But when you talk of "prostituted women", you are denying that many, and almost certainly the vast majority in the UK (given the results of Operations Pentameter 1 & 2), prostitutes are prostitutes by choice.

"Have you any evidence that co-operative brothels, run by willing prostitutes, are bad for the women involved? When pimps are, by definition, eliminated?"

There's plenty of evidence that prostitution is bad for the women involved.

I would not call engaging in Survival Sex, as many prostitutes are, as being a prostitute by choice.

Its very difficult to prove the crime of 'trafficking' but that doesn't mean most of the women freely 'choose' to become prostitutes.

FoodUnit, you are avoiding the point. Fair enough, I'm a bit tired myself. Good night.

Goth Anne, the conversation has not been about Survival Sex. At the risk of offending you, may I suggest that you read the thread?

I am tired, and I'm off to bed. Thank you all for an interesting discussion, Vicar your input much valued and I hope you continue to offer the support you've been able to give in the past.

Sorry none of it really helps the OP, except the knowledge that "running a brothel" may be a criminal offence.

"FoodUnit, you are avoiding the point."
What point?
Is it

1. That working in a cooperative lessens the harms of prostitution? That would be no.
2. That working in a cooperative makes rape less of an occupational hazard? That would be no again
3. That to have legalised cooperatives would mean the end of pimping? That would also be a no.

What other point are you trying to make?

Excellent contributions from Food Unit and Goth Anne here. It amazes me the lengths some folks will go to try and "sanitise" prostitution, even in the face of overwhelming evidence of the harm caused.

Yes KRITIQ - I am always amazed at how people will squint their eyes and turn their heads sideways to make the status quo look fair and just. Just shows how much the majority draw feelings of safety and security from things being as they are, undisturbed, in spite of gross inequality and the prevalence of abuse and exploitation.

I don't think anyone contributing to this thread has tried to argue in favour of the 'staus quo' WRT prostitution, or that the difficulty in recognising or 'proving' trafficking negates its existence.
OLKN I think your view that most punters would recognise that a prostitute was trafficked through body language or distress signals is misguided, though. A quick look at punters' sites, or a chat to men who visit prostitutes, or a walk through any red light area should make it fairly obvious how punters see very selectively.
Bear in mind, also that these men are also likely to consume a staple diet of porn, and take their cues for sexual 'signals' and body language from there.

Wow - hello all, I'm the OP, sorry I've only just managed to get back to this thread!

I've read the first page so far (there are 4) and would like to thank you all for your responses. I have to say that I sympathise with Vicar's point of view. (DH is an ex-copper and I am well aware that many, many women who work as prostitutes do so because of drug addiction, not through any personal choice). I also feel horrified and sad for any woman who feels forced into prostitution through addiction or other devastating circumstances. I am now going to read everything you have pointed me to, before the meeting starts a bit later, so thank you for helping to inform me....

I will ask the police officers at our meeting if they ever check on the welfare of the ladies working in the brothel. Will they think I'm out of order if I ask them to do this?? (serious question) - DH says that it's not their job but I think it is...!

Yes, FoodUnit - the increased risk of rape is one of my concerns too. (sorry, I'm still catching up with the thread)

There are also allegations that women are being trafficked at these premises, and it is item 1 on the agenda for our discussion today - we all want t know if these allegationsa re being investigated thoroughly.

"I will ask the police officers at our meeting if they ever check on the welfare of the ladies working in the brothel. Will they think I'm out of order if I ask them to do this?? (serious question) - DH says that it's not their job but I think it is...!"

Maybe you could ask them also if they ever charge anyone with buying sex from someone who has been exploited (by pimp/drug addiction) as it is now illegal under Clause 14 of the Policing & Crime Act:

14 Paying for sexual services of a prostitute subjected to force etc: England and Wales

After section 53 of the Sexual Offences Act 2003 (c. 42) insert?
?53APaying for sexual services of a prostitute subjected to force etc.

(1)A person (A) commits an offence if?
(a)A makes or promises payment for the sexual services of a prostitute (B),
(b)a third person (C) has engaged in exploitative conduct of a kind likely to induce or encourage B to provide the sexual services for which A has made or promised payment, and
(c)C engaged in that conduct for or in the expectation of gain for C or another person (apart from A or B).
(2)The following are irrelevant?
(a)where in the world the sexual services are to be provided and whether those services are provided,
(b)whether A is, or ought to be, aware that C has engaged in exploitative conduct.
(3)C engages in exploitative conduct if?
(a)C uses force, threats (whether or not relating to violence) or any other form of coercion, or
(b)C practises any form of deception.
(4)A person guilty of an offence under this section is liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding level 3 on the standard scale.?

Sorry, but I think the idea of 'choice' to work as a prostitute is a misnomer. If a woman resorts to prostitution because of poverty, because of a lack of alternative options, because of abuse in childhood - as the vast majority do - it's hardly a 'choice', is it? I really think that is a dangerous argument because it legitimises the demand for women's bodies as a commodity (which contributes to trafficking because it is seen as a lucrative business) and minimalises the emotional and physical harms which prostitution exposes women to.

Even the idea of co-operative brothels run by women themselves, how does that magically protect women from clients breaking agreements during the act or subjecting women to violence. How does it change the fact that she needs to service x number of clients a day to make a living, and probably is doing so because she can't make the money another way? It doesn't make it better, it makes it worse, because society can then go, it's okay, the women 'choose' to be there.

LMIP "I don't think anyone contributing to this thread has tried to argue in favour of the 'staus quo' WRT prostitution, or that the difficulty in recognising or 'proving' trafficking negates its existence."

To use the language of 'choice' and 'agency' for people who the status quo affords little choice but to rent out their agency, is arguing in favour of that status quo.

In the status quo, the dominant group have all the choice and agency to abuse and exploit who they like. The argument that this is inevitable therefore we should make this practice respectable is unequivocally arguing in favour of the status quo.

I have a fundamental problem. I do not really want to live in a country that thinks it acceptable to buy and sell women like commodities. Whether the Iceland approach is working or not, at least I would know I was living in a country where the Government there thinks more of women and to quote the PM of Iceland 'Iclelandic men will just have to get used to the idea that women here are not for sale'. Obviously, there will be underground things going on but at least they are under no illusions - it is illegal there. Also, men have to realise that the world does not revolve around their sexuality. I know it probably sounds quite radical but I think women should be offered better choices in life.

By the way - it is not the oldest profession - farming is.

Stewie - totally agree with the choice thing. People want to sanitise it because they dont want to think about the deeper issues.