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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Police officers & lawyers, I need your wisdom please re brothels

226 replies

MrsMcEnroe · 22/08/2012 19:24

Hello all,

Some background: I own a shop in a part of town that has been grotty and neglected for years but which is now, thanks to a lot of hard work from residents and traders plus a Lottery grant, now starting to regenerate.

Across the road from my shop is a brothel. It is acknowledged as such by the local police. Residents and traders are not happy that the brothel is allowed to continue operating. Most people are worried about the supposed "dodgy blokes" (to quote a recent email, not my words, on the subject) that it brings to the area; however, I have more serious concerns regarding the welfare of the ladies working there. I have seen some of them leaving and they don't look well at all.

I am attending a meeting of the local community forum tomorrow, at which the police, council members and planning officers will tell us what they are doing re the brothel (if anything). I know I've read that prostitutes are at much higher risk of violence, including sexual violence, than other women; does anyone have any facts and figures I could use please? Also, is it even legal to operate a brothel? When I was doing my law degree 20 years ago, I'm sure brothel-keeping came under the heading of living off immoral earnings but perhaps this has changed?? I just want to make the point that there are vulnerable women right there in our midst who, rather than being condemned, should be helped. (I never qualified as a lawyer, hence my lack of current knowledge).

Or am I being naive? Or simplistic?

This post comes cross in a very stilted manner - sorry, I'm typing with 2 fingers with a puppy asleep on my lap!

TIA.

OP posts:
LastMangoInParis · 24/08/2012 15:57

Lost what you describe re. men selling women to other men also looks very much like the traditional business model/institution of marriage to me.

yy re. women keeping money from prostitution - and I've sometimes wondered whether the very idea of women owning and controlling capital hasn't in itself been seen as 'immoral earning(s)'

Thank you for thoughts re fear/intimidation - as I've said, my experiences were limited and in comparison to those of many, many other women, quite safe. It wasn't fear of actual punters, though, it was fear through knowledge of potential danger and actual vulnerability.

FoodUnit · 24/08/2012 18:02

There are historically a lot of links between marriage, slavery, trafficking and prostitution ('taking' a wife)- in as much as they are all about the female existing as the servant/property of the male, to be bought, sold, exchanged, worked to exhaustion by them.

I suppose the difference now with marriage (thanks to feminism) is that the male can no longer expect to be served by the female and can no longer treat her as his property. Prostitution is where his entitlement can remain, since he can use his surplus income to for a time keep the woman as servant/slave to his pleasure.

Since women now have economic independence and legal rights, if a punter treated his wife the way he treats the prostitute he is likely to be divorced or prosecuted for violent offences. Wives are not obliged to serve and pleasure men in the way that, for her sustinance and survival, the prostitute must.

solidgoldbrass · 24/08/2012 22:17

In any properly-run business, staff are entitled to refuse to deal with customers who are obnoxious or unreasonable. In any badly run business, staff may be coerced into dealing with customers who are unreasonable, aggressive, rude or dishonest. This applies whether the business is selling sexual services, mini-cabbing or fast food or anything else.

FoodUnit · 24/08/2012 22:30

The consequences of a 'badly run business' are very different depending on their 'service' / 'product'. With most businesses it means trouble and some distress of staff. With the sex industry it means violent sexual assault. Not quite the same degree oF harm (unless you are heartlessly detached in your perspective).

LastMangoInParis · 24/08/2012 22:32

Construction industry? Serious injury or death?

FoodUnit · 24/08/2012 22:34

Well I suppose I'd prefer a death of a construction accident than to be sexually tortured until my lights went out.

LastMangoInParis · 24/08/2012 22:36

Well I hope you never have to make that choice, Unit (may I call you that?)

FoodUnit · 24/08/2012 22:41

You are welcome to call me Unit, and I second that. I just think that the worst kind of death would be at the hands of someone who was getting turned on by my powerless struggle to stay alive.

LastMangoInParis · 24/08/2012 23:01

Er, yes, that would certainly be a nasty way to leave the building, Unit.

FoodUnit · 24/08/2012 23:15

Sorry, I know its dark, but you cannot call prostitution a 'service' or 'business' like any other, since its very nature is exploitative and abusive.

OneMoreChap · 25/08/2012 11:53

FoodUnit Fri 24-Aug-12 23:15:34
Sorry, I know its dark, but you cannot call prostitution a 'service' or 'business' like any other, since its very nature is exploitative and abusive.

Is that in all cases? Surely LMIP suggested some women (and for all I know, men) have chosen to do this? If their choice is made freely, should you stop them providing this legal service?

FoodUnit · 25/08/2012 12:46

OneMoreChap "Is that in all cases? Surely LMIP suggested some women (and for all I know, men) have chosen to do this? If their choice is made freely, should you stop them providing this legal service?"

You are a bit late to the party. I've said previously that I don't believe in prosecuting the prostituted.

Also its already been discussed that 'choice' is a misleading word for the decisions made by those with few options. So, here we go again.

YES. Prostitution is always abusive, even if the abused thinks it isn't, because to subject someone to unwanted sex, whether you pay for it or not is an abusive thing to do.

Yes. Prostitution is always exploitative, since it is the exploitation of differentials in social status, options, wealth - to allow those with the greater to invasively gratify themselves by the latter.

FoodUnit · 25/08/2012 12:48

latter - should be 'lesser

OneMoreChap · 25/08/2012 12:55

Sorry Food bumped into this by accident posting about kid's toys. Having skimmed the thread, I thought LMIP said some people entered this way of life by choice.

In other words, if you like, they weren't "prostituted" by anyone else - and did it through choice, economic or otherwise.

If that is the case, do we say, that's not a choice you can make, to undertake this legal activity.

[Many years ago, I went out with a woman who later told me she'd been on the game. She told me she did through boredom, and for money... she came from a challenging family, but I suspect anyone who tried to make her do something would have disappeared. They were a scary lot]

When she ran into some other trouble in the Smoke, she went back to Manchester, where her family lived and worked behind a bar. She could have "worked" in Manchester, but chose not to. Was that a choice, or not.

I think brothels in residential areas aren't a great idea, incidentally, and if anyone thinks there are abused/trafficked women there, for sure, get it reported.

FoodUnit · 25/08/2012 13:03

"[Many years ago, I went out with a woman who later told me she'd been on the game. She told me she did through boredom, and for money... she came from a challenging family, but I suspect anyone who tried to make her do something would have disappeared. They were a scary lot]"

I don't know where you are heading with this anecdote. Are you saying she wasn't willfully putting herself in an abusive situation? Are you sure she wasn't 'compelled' to do it (because of being messed up by her dodgy family)? If she was compelled it indicates a lack of choice, and exploitation by the whole ready-made framework of prostitution, waiting for damaged women/girls like her to slot right into.

So it doesn't really suggest 'free choice' to me.

OneMoreChap · 25/08/2012 13:17

Not going anywhere?

I don't know what she was doing. She said she had been on the game, working as a prostitute, in London. I was interested in her sexually, and I probably suspected that asking lots of questions, "Who were your clients, how often did you, how much did you, did you have a pimp" might put her off a bit.

She was a strong character and her family were a mix of burglars and armed robbers. I went out with her dad for a drink a few times, and said hello to the brothers if I saw them, but I didn't know them that well. All of them, including her mum, were a bit scary.

I can't imagine her being forced into anything; I was in my 20s she was in her 30s if it helps.

When she game back to Manchester she worked behind a bar; she was certainly capable of resuming a life as a prostitute, so I imagine she made a choice not to.

FoodUnit · 25/08/2012 13:28

"I can't imagine her being forced into anything; I was in my 20s she was in her 30s if it helps."

It is difficult for most people to imagine the vulnerability of someone who has to put on a tough front to survive - but you can be pretty sure that some 'force' by her dodgy family in her early life gave her all the training she needed to come across like that.

Since you didn't know her that well and she didn't offer much up, I think you cannot assume about her 'choices' in the whole thing.

OneMoreChap · 25/08/2012 15:06

FoodUnit Sat 25-Aug-12 13:28:57
"I can't imagine her being forced into anything; I was in my 20s she was in her 30s if it helps."

It is difficult for most people to imagine the vulnerability of someone who has to put on a tough front to survive - but you can be pretty sure that some 'force' by her dodgy family in her early life gave her all the training she needed to come across like that.

Most people?
Boys brought up in institutions, perhaps?
Men who went into the services early?
Some people who says things like "I can't imagine her being forced into anything" have pretty good imagination and possibly some life experience themselves...

Since you didn't know her that well and she didn't offer much up, I think you cannot assume about her 'choices' in the whole thing.

Whoa... hold on a tick; bit of conflation here.
I knew her pretty well; I didn't know her family well. I'd been for meals with them, and out for drinks a few times, but not well. I went out with her for the best part of a year, and remained friendly afterwards.

I certainly knew them and her better than you do; and so, "I think you cannot assume about her 'choices' in the whole thing."

LastMangoInParis · 25/08/2012 15:06

FoodUnit - if you think that OneMoreChap 'cannot assume' about the choices of someonw he has actually had a relationship with (whatever the level of relationship), then why do you believe that you are able to make assumptions about the 'choices' (or lack of them) of every single person who has exchanged sex for money?
And how dare you suggest that when sex workers believe that they are acting as free agects they are in fact deluded? Why do you think that you understand people you have never met and know nothing about better than they understand themselves? What gives you this superior insight?

FoodUnit · 25/08/2012 16:16

LastMangoInParis "FoodUnit - if you think that OneMoreChap 'cannot assume' about the choices of someonw he has actually had a relationship with (whatever the level of relationship), then why do you believe that you are able to make assumptions about the 'choices' (or lack of them) of every single person who has exchanged sex for money?"

OneMoreChap was using a personal example of a very -what would appear fleeting- relationship as an illustration of a woman's deeper motivations. It was his very common mistake of attributing a hard exterior with being super-strong (impossible to force) on the inside that made me suspect that he is not a good judge of character, motivation or women. So I doubt that his summation of a woman he doesn't know very well has value as evidence in his argument.

"And how dare you suggest that when sex workers believe that they are acting as free agects they are in fact deluded?"

I have not explicitly said "when sex workers believe that they are acting as free agects they are in fact deluded". Although I don't think whether they believe they are free or not changes the fact that they are selling sexual abuse - so if this is a free choice then it truly is not a good choice for the human race.

"Why do you think that you understand people you have never met and know nothing about better than they understand themselves? What gives you this superior insight?"

When did I say this?

FoodUnit · 25/08/2012 16:33

"I can't imagine her being forced into anything" have pretty good imagination and possibly some life experience themselves..."

What about inner 'compulsion'? There are lots of people who feel compelled to do self-destructive things as a result of trauma. I would imagine with her hardness and dodgy family there is a story in there. [and for FTR lastmango, I've known lots of people with lots of compulsive behaviours as a result of trauma who swear blind they are acting completely freely when they engage in it, they also have a fierce attachment and defensiveness about it too - so it is not psychologically false to propose there may be cases of this motivation in prostitution]

"I knew her pretty well; I didn't know her family well. "

Sorry, it read like a more fleeting thing than you described.

OneMoreChap · 25/08/2012 17:12

FoodUnit Sat 25-Aug-12 16:16:46
OneMoreChap was using a personal example of a very -what would appear fleeting- relationship

our definitions of fleeting differ.

as an illustration of a woman's deeper motivations.

No, I was saying what I saw.

It was his very common mistake of attributing a hard exterior with being super-strong (impossible to force) on the inside that made me suspect that he is not a good judge of character, motivation or women.

Since you don't know me, anything of my background, anything of my history or anything of my experience of working with kids, teens and troubled individuals that makes you sound as if you're reading too much into this.

I value your description of me as much as I paid for it.

So I doubt that his summation of a woman he doesn't know very well has value as evidence in his argument.

I didn't offer evidence; I offered an anecdote. Someone I went out with...
I knew her much better than you, so my summation is at least better than yours.

May I ask, how well do you know any "prostituted" women?
Friends with any? Been out with any?
How much time have you spent with them and their families?
How often have you shared a table with them?
Have you ever met any of the other women they know who are prostititutes? Have you ever met a rentboy?

I haven't met very many; the ones I have met, I have met socially. They weren't the most damaged people I've met by a long chalk; nor the most abused.

OneMoreChap · 25/08/2012 17:14

I'll add I think it's very hard to understand why most men think it is a good way to conduct themselves.

One of the women that was her mate said one of her regulars was an old chap in a wheelchair. Yeah, OK, maybe I can see that...

PlentyOfPubeGardens · 25/08/2012 17:34

According to evidence submitted to the UK Government (Home Office, 2004), between 50-75% of women entered prostitution before they were 18, with 15 years being the average age of entry. In addition, Paying the Price (Home Office, 2004) noted that 75% of children abused through prostitution had been missing from school. Cusick and colleagues (2002) found that a majority of British women in prostitution had begun prostitution as minors. The average age at entry into prostitution is adolescence (Spangenberg, 2001; Boyer, Chapman and Marshall, 1993; Nadon, Koverola and Schludermann, 1998).

... an overwhelming majority of women in all forms of prostitution have been sexually abused as children (Silbert and Pines, 1982a; Nadon et al., 1998). Some estimates are as high as 90%. As one woman explained, ?Through childhood sexual abuse, many prostituted women have become conditioned into thinking that this is their choice? It normalises this kind of behaviour and causes many to enter into the trade? (Aumord, 2009).

Research has shown that there is a 75% rate of current or past homelessness among those prostituted in nine countries (Farley et al., 2003).

There is extensive literature documenting that prostitution causes profound emotional damage (Baldwin, 1992; Barry, 1995; Dworkin, 1997; Herman, 2003; Hoigard and Finstad, 1986; Farley et al., 2003; Raymond et al., 2002).

A majority of women who sell sex have pimps who may be called by other names, such as friend or husband. Nonetheless they function as pimps (McLeod, 1982; Farley, 2007).

Watts and Zimmerman (2002) at the Department of Public Health and Policy of the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine noted that trafficking for prostitution and violence against prostitutes was one of the most common and severe forms of violence against women in the world (2002). A study of 240 women prostituted in Leeds, Edinburgh, and Glasgow found that 26% of women in indoor prostitution had experienced some form of serious violence from the men who had bought them in the past six months (Church et al., 2001).

Only 9% of the women in Kramer?s (2003) study indicated that they had any positive feelings at all during acts of prostitution. More commonly, Kramer?s interviewees described feeling sad, detached, angry or anxious when prostituting. Kramer?s study ... found that 77% of the time the women experienced a negative emotional state.

Generally, the literature indicates that women are not sexually aroused by prostitution, and that after extended periods of time servicing hundreds of men, prostitution damages or destroys much of their own sexuality (Barry, 1995; Funari, 1997; Giobbe, 1991; Hoigard and Finstad, 1986; Raymond et al., 2002).

From the Eaves study - Men Who Buy Sex

LastMangoInParis · 25/08/2012 19:13

Did OneMoreChap describe this woman as 'super strong'? No.
Did he even imply that she was 'super strong'? No, but you seem to have leapt to the conculsion that that's what he was saying, FoodUnit.
And there you go again: "It was his mistake..."
You have no idea whether he was mistaken about this woman or not, but you state that he was.
(And his thoughts seem to have been fairly circumspect, to me.)

Yes, it's true that some people engage in self-destructive behaviours, of course it is. But that does not therefore mean that no sex worker has made a choice to sell sex.

Oh, and FWIW, having come from a 'challenging' background or being a survivor of sexual abuse does not mean that one's decisions are 'self destructive' or made without sufficient agency.