Police officers & lawyers, I need your wisdom please re brothels

[MrsMcEnroe]

Hello all,

Some background: I own a shop in a part of town that has been grotty and neglected for years but which is now, thanks to a lot of hard work from residents and traders plus a Lottery grant, now starting to regenerate.

Across the road from my shop is a brothel. It is acknowledged as such by the local police. Residents and traders are not happy that the brothel is allowed to continue operating. Most people are worried about the supposed "dodgy blokes" (to quote a recent email, not my words, on the subject) that it brings to the area; however, I have more serious concerns regarding the welfare of the ladies working there. I have seen some of them leaving and they don't look well at all.

I am attending a meeting of the local community forum tomorrow, at which the police, council members and planning officers will tell us what they are doing re the brothel (if anything). I know I've read that prostitutes are at much higher risk of violence, including sexual violence, than other women; does anyone have any facts and figures I could use please? Also, is it even legal to operate a brothel? When I was doing my law degree 20 years ago, I'm sure brothel-keeping came under the heading of living off immoral earnings but perhaps this has changed?? I just want to make the point that there are vulnerable women right there in our midst who, rather than being condemned, should be helped. (I never qualified as a lawyer, hence my lack of current knowledge).

Or am I being naive? Or simplistic?

This post comes cross in a very stilted manner - sorry, I'm typing with 2 fingers with a puppy asleep on my lap!

TIA.

'The oldest trade' is a meaningless statement. Prostitution has roots in slavery and trafficking, not 'trade'.

FoodUnit, of course a (free) prostitute can refuse a punter. If someone repeatedly turns up at a "respectable" * brothel stinking and unwashed, treating the women badly etc, why would a brothel-keeper jeapordise his/her income by pissing off the women earning it? How exactly do you force a (free) prostitute to give a BJ, or fuck?

*When I say "respectable", I mean one that is run in a professional manner, clean etc, as if it were kegal. And such do exist, in far greater numbers than "trafficked" underground places.

im name changing. want to go back to being plain old joe public, and im going to hide anything in future with the word police in the title, whether it be asking advice, or a bit of good old police bashing.....because i have made a rod for my own back.

Actually, not even "repeatedly". Once.

Oh, Vicar, you have been such a marvellous source of strength and reassurance to so many women, because you declare your job. I'd be sorry to see that change.

But you must do what you must do.

sorry you feel like an idiot, you are not

hope have not done any police bashing

esp as have shagged and even dated (briefly) police officers who were nice (let's hear it for Suffolk Constabulary again!)

am hiding thread though, forgot how thin on the ground feminists are round here these days

You know what is really practical? Leaving the strong to get on with abusing and exploiting the weak without interference- its cheap! Since it will happen anyway, what's the point in all these idealised notions of 'civilised society' or abstractions like 'justice' or that are never going to change anything?

Making abuse and exploitation look respectable is probably the best option, because then we can all praise ourselves for being open-minded whilst invisiblising the actual harming of the vulnerable.

After all its not like life has ever improved as a result of the pressure from idealists is it?

I know someone who was kicked out of working in a brothel on their first day for refusing the first client (it was on creepy/hygiene grounds). They usually require people who have already had their sense of self badly damaged so they can split off and override the repulsion and hatred that courses through their bodies.

Hygiene grounds, fair enough to refuse, as a health issue.

"Creepy" just means she wasn't suited to the work (for whatever reason) and so it was surely a good, even responsible thing, that she was "kicked out of working in a brothel"? For her own mental health?

No the words were "you can refuse an act but you can't refuse a client"

Were you there?

No I wasn't. Were you?

Any advice for the OP, then? ?

I gave a link to a resource I thought would be good on the first page of this thread.

No, FoodUnit, of course I wasn't.

But if the person you know refused her first punter on the grounds of "creepiness", she plainly is not suited to the work. And if you're not, doing it will cause all sorts of mental fuckups, as lots and lots of stats show.

So it would be a responsible brothelkeeper who would tell her that/chuck her out, yes?

I don't think (from what I remember of our conversation) that the creepiness thing was mentioned. Maybe it was a regular or a friend of the boss who'd been pissed off - who knows? And it was more repulsion than fear that was communicated to me. By what you are saying, you believe that some people have no sexual repulsion and they are the 'right' sort of people to work as prostitutes, and a responsible brothel owner should make sure only this special kind of human work in a brothel (irrespective of their economic needs)?

FoodUnit (sorry to keep using your name, feels a bit rude, but it's in case of x posting) I can quite understand that a brothelkeeper may well have a creepy and entitled friend, or indeed, be creepy and entitled himself, and if your aquaintance was repelled she's better off out of it.

I don't think some people have no sexual repulsion, but different things/acts/people repel different people. If you are going to work successfully as a prostitute, without damaging your own mental and physical health, you have to be able to set your own boundaries, but those boundaries need to be fairly broad. Eg, is he clean, respectful and polite? Only requesting acts with which you are comfortable? Then yes. If he has to be someone you'd do for free, when sober... Then it's not the right job.

I realise that for many, economic needs may overcome these boundaries, and that is when damage occurs.

"How exactly do you force a (free) prostitute to give a BJ, or fuck?"

Haven't you ever heard of rape?

Also, haven't you heard how difficult it is for women in prostitution to pursue a rape charge let alone a conviction?

Women get raped in brothels. Its an occupational hazard!

No worries about using my name OldLadyKnowsNothing.

The point of a "respectable" brothel is to prevent the rape of prostitutes, because they have the company of other women, perhaps a "bodyguard" too, and sometimes even rape alarms in the room. If they were legal, they could be safer.

Rape is not necessarily an occupational hazard of brothel-based prostitution.

Exactly, OLKN.

Out of interest, MrsMcEnroe, have you actaully spoken to any ofthese women about whom you are worried?

"I realise that for many, economic needs may overcome these boundaries, and that is when damage occurs."

I would have thought that is what the definition of prostution is: Economic needs overcoming the boundaries of who has sexual access to your body, and economic necessity overcoming the boundary of only engaging in sexual acts because you want to.

"The point of a "respectable" brothel is to prevent the rape of prostitutes"

No, its a business and the point of it is to make money.

I think the more usual definition of prostitution is the exchanging of sexual services for money, FoodUnit.

Clearly there are other semantic issues that are clouding arguments on this thread, though. I think when OLKN refers to 'respectable' brothels, (s)he means brothels where prostitutes are safe and able to exercise their rights. Obviously that's very different from a brothel with a veneeer of respectability.
And I'm sure that you both know this, but I want to point it out because otherwise these threads go round. And round. And round.
Which was why I really welcomed Vicar's comments.