What is wrong with a boy playing with a doll?

[AugustMoon]

DS (9) today saw an ad for 'girls'' lego and was quite vocal in his objections to girls playing with something that is meant for boys (where am I going wrong?!) - argument being that boys should have something that is just theirs.
This led me to voice my opinions on the matter and to mention that I would consider buying a doll for DS3 (4wks) which didn't go down well, to say the least, with my all-male household. Main reasons being that his brothers would 'take the piss', that he obviously wouldn't want a doll and would tell us as much if he could and that it's not 'normal'.
My main concern is WHY do they think it's so wrong? Where's the harm in it - or rather, what harm do they think it will do?

"Bringing children up - of either sort - and not teaching them life skills seems crackers."

Absolutely agree!

When I was a child I used to sacrifice any old and battered action doll in a bonfire I'd build in the garden. The newer dolls would form a semi-circle around the old one and burn them at the stake for being 'old and weak'. Alternatively I'd have another doll decapitate them with a hot wire and pretend all the new dolls cheered as this happened, invariably this occured only after the old doll was captured by the newer dolls and tortured with various implements. In principle I'd have no problem with my son behaving in the same fashion towards barbie dolls, not that I'd buy him one anyway.

See below for the reason why.

latebreakfast
"Buy your DS a doll. I'm sure he'll love it, and by doing so you'll strike an unexpected blow for feminism."

My mother once chided me for criticizing my sister for letting her son go to ballet lessons. She witheringly trotted out the default femi-trope of 'you think if he doesn't he'll catch the gay from ballet lessons?' My exact response is unrepeatable, but went something along the lines of 'No, you clueless *, I think he'll catch a beating from the other boys, so best he knows how to hand one (a beating) back'.

IDK, maybe it's different in some corner of Surrey where Tristan and Tarquin can express gender equality to their hearts' content, but in the school I went to they'd either have had to learn to run fast or fight. Parents should consider the unexpected blows their children may receive, before self-righteously using them as political tools.

Young children love to play games which let them explore and copy their daily experiences - nothing more fun than copying mummy and daddy. Looking after babies/toddlers is part of that experience.

My DS has a toddler boy doll (which looks a little like him). The doll has a hard life, but is much loved.

I'm not expecting DS to carry on playing with his doll for much longer as he starts school soon, but I don't think that having a doll as a toddler and pre-schooler has had a detrimental effect. IME toddlers and pre-schoolers don't get beaten by their peers.

Uppercut - have you not seen the muscles on male ballet dancers? Sure, they aren't going to develop without an awful lot of dedication - but the actual ballet will help with the learning to run fast or fight...

my 2 gs love playing with dolls & prams ,even my ds2 does .

and 'don't do that incase bullies pick on you' -pretty crap response to life IMO

DS (4.8) has dancing lessons. However, he will also soon start self-defence lessons - not so he can "hand a beating back" but so he can deflect any bullying when he comes up against backward-thinking chauvinist-trained yobs like Uppercut mentioned.

anastaisia

Sure, when a 12 year old boy breaks out a fouetté en tournant followed by a few grand jeté I'm sure his bullies will soil themselves and beg for mercy through tears of abject terror. They'll certainly never laugh at his My Little Pony collection again.

... think I'll stand by my boxing comment.

I just asked my ex, DS2 & DS3's dad. His first response was "That's wrong". When I said well what about the toy kitchen DS2 had, he said that it might be seen as a girls toy, but he's a chef & DS2 was just copying him.

I then pointed out that when DS3 pushes a doll in the pram, he is also just copying his dad.

Ex then pulled a face and said "Oh. I see your point. I guess if it wasn't pink then it's not a problem"

anastaisia Sat 25-Aug-12 11:25:14
and 'don't do that incase bullies pick on you' -pretty crap response to life IMO

I'd agree with this, incidentally.
How would you deal with bullies?

Uppercut Sat 25-Aug-12 11:01:03
My exact response is unrepeatable, but went something along the lines of 'No, you clueless *, I think he'll catch a beating from the other boys, so best he knows how to hand one (a beating) back'.

IDK, maybe it's different in some corner of Surrey where Tristan and Tarquin can express gender equality to their hearts' content, but in the school I went to they'd either have had to learn to run fast or fight. Parents should consider the unexpected blows their children may receive, before self-righteously using them as political tools.

I was taught "We don't hit girls." I was also taught that if someone physically bullied me, to make it hurt them. If you don't they'll keep coming back. Punch them. Hard. Make it obvious that they have been hurt. If there's a gang of them, catch the ringleader the biggest one and do him.

Later on, I came to the conclusion violence in general is bad. I still showed son [and daughter] how to hit and hurt people. Violence is bad, but it is far worse if used against me and "mine".

I'd add that the only time I've used violence in the last 25 years is pulling scrotes off women. And on one occasion, despite the fact he'd slapped his pregnant girlfriend to knock her down, I got "Don't hurt him, he loves me."
Not even worth calling the police, she wouldn't have charged him/given a statement.

not terribly 'manly' to modify what you want to do and how you live life out of a fear that someone might pick on you for it. It's not as though doing everything the way other people think you should means bullying doesn't happen either - people who are going to bully will find something to pick on whatever. The thing is not letting them get away with it, not changing how you behave to avoid it.

DD played with toy cars far more than DS1 and DS2 ever did. They have finally been handed down to DS3, who enjoys putting his cave baby on top and whiz zing it around...

DS2 was far more into his toy cooker and DD's dolls than DD ever was.

Thumbwitch
"DS (4.8) has dancing lessons. However, he will also soon start self-defence lessons - not so he can "hand a beating back" but so he can deflect any bullying when he comes up against backward-thinking chauvinist-trained yobs like Uppercut mentioned."

I'm not sure sure what 'deflection' means here? The best way of deflecting a bully is by hitting him so hard he snots himself and cries for his mum. Thankfully this usually deflects other would-be bullies too.

The PC chant that 'violence never solves anything' is a load of foetid tripe.

anastaisia
"and 'don't do that incase bullies pick on you' -pretty crap response to life IMO "

But they won't be picking on you, they'll be picking on your kids because of you.

Different matter entirely.

Both my DS' have access to toys aimed at both genders. I am teaching ds1 (6) to cook, bake, see and dh is teaching basic DIY which I am shocking at (apart from decorating). We will also teach ds2 these things too in due course. If they ha been girls I would treat them the same.

They need to know all of these skills to e well rounded people as apposed to "blokes" who don't do any of that womanly stuff.

I meant as something to teach your child. Because that's what you're teaching them if you stop a boy who wants to do dancing from doing it because you're scared kids will pick on him. Pushing him do dance if he isn't interested would be bad too, not saying you should do it to make a point if he isn't interested in it.

The thing that seems worst to me is that ADULTS shouldn't be backing up the bullies position by making out as though it's sort of okay for them to pick on people if those people do certain things. Which is how you sound to me with the things you're saying.

Uppercut - you are of course entitled to your opinion but I have no intention of teaching my child to become an unthinking thug either, thanks. He will not learn to be the aggressor, he will learn to defend himself from other unthinking thugs/bullies. If they get hurt in the process, they'll only have themselves to blame - but he isn't going to learn to smack them before they hit him.

anastaisia
"not terribly 'manly' to modify what you want to do and how you live life out of a fear that someone might pick on you for it. It's not as though doing everything the way other people think you should means bullying doesn't happen either - people who are going to bully will find something to pick on whatever. The thing is not letting them get away with it, not changing how you behave to avoid it. "

Lol. So much for feminists trying to eradicate gender stereotypes.

you did notice the inverted comma's right?

commas even. random stray apostrophe!

'The best way of deflecting a bully is by hitting him so hard he snots himself and cries for his mum. Thankfully this usually deflects other would-be bullies too'

Actually that's the best way to ensure that your child ends up expelled and with a criminal record while their bullies carry on with their lives.

NarkedRaspberry Sat 25-Aug-12 12:09:37
Actually that's the best way to ensure that your child ends up expelled and with a criminal record while their bullies carry on with their lives.

When did we decide bullying only happens at school?

If your child assaults another child at any time, in or out of school, they risk a criminal record. If anyone of 16 or over hits someone the potential sanctions rise. If the person the hit is a fellow pupil, regardless of where it happens, they may well be kicked out completely or removed from mainstream lessons at their school.

Oh dear, I assume your DS wouldn't approve of my and DD2 love of match box type cars

Or the fact that I like driving real ones faster than you should.

I'm actually quite interested in this.

I don't approve of physical violence. having said that, I overcome my reluctance when some pregnant women is being slapped around to some extent.

If your child is being punched, by a group of boys a year or so older, what would you have him do? Curl up to protect his face, stomach and crotch? later report the bullies... and get beaten up again as a tout/grass/snitch/sneak. Quite likely to happen.

Is it our belief that bullies are always excluded from school, and we don't see bullied children being moved?

My children were brought up with mixed toys, and taught there aren't "gender" roles. [Which is another reason my daughter was told that if a boy hits her - hit him back very very hard]