Positives and negatives of the Olympics.

[kickassangel]

Hopefully a fairly light hearted thread but thought we could keep a tally of the plus and minus sides of the Olympics.

Plus
Women from Saudi, and more women from other Middle Eastern States.
Women included in the military flag bearers
Future sports people fairly even m/f balance (and their sponsors)

Minus
Still more events for men than women
Still more men taking part, and given better status/accommodations etc
Women carrying the country names, and the bowl things during the parade.
Mainly women nurses with the children on beds.
Paul McCartney getting the 'men' to sing first and the 'girls' to have a go second.

I was hoping that I'd noticed some more positives, but apparently not.

What did other people notice?

The reasons for no GB football team, men or women, in the past are a bit more complicated than sexism. Because the UK has four FA's - England, Scotland, N Ireland and Wales - all four have resisted in the past. They are worried about their autonomy, and not being able to qualify for World Cups and Euros separately, as FIFA and UEFA might force them to field a single GB squad. The UK Olympics is a special case, and it wont happen again.

So not sexism, but jobs for the 'smaller' FA's and national identity protection. Sorry to disappoint.

I stand by what I said, namechangeguy. The women were prevented because they were worried about setting a precedent. And their concerns were not for the womens' game but the men's. I'm quite sure that the Scottish, Welsh and NI womens' footballers would have jumped at the chance of playing for GB after Beijing if it meant that they got an opportunity to play internationally.

But they couldn't because the FAs didn't want a Team GB. And their concern was for hte men, not for the women.

Just a big HOORAY for women's Football! I think they do indeed put the men to shame, obviously giving it their all and proud to wear the shirt.
But then they're not overpaid whiny idiots like the men are they? (I'm thinking about male professional footballers in general.)

oh gosh how could I forget the men's gymnasts!!!!
I need a spreadsheet - so many medals now.

Whatever, namechangeguy, call it whatever you want, but the effect is still the same.

I don't follow how there's no sexism?

Surely worries about autonomy that result in women not being included are evidence of sexism somewhere - unless having a vagina makes you an automatic threat to autonomy of any group in which you participate?

I came on here because I just saw the women's gold for the rowing, and was thrilled. That is so good to see!

Getting back to the conversation of the sexes of the medal winners/teams - I agree totally, messy, that seeing men and women supporting each other and winning alongside each other is the best thing and amazing to watch.

I was also thinking that, given the men's gymnastics is the only male-only event we've won, there must be lots of little boys for whom that's the most visible 'male' event we've won - and it's not traditionally masculine. Those men are phenomenally strong and fit, and I really like that it is showing how the stereotypes about these things are completely false. Maybe now we'll have more boys thinking 'wow, I want to do that' as well as 'wow, I want to play football'. And getting people doing a wider range of things has got to be good, hasn't it?

There was a comment on the football coverage last night that this is the first time the women have played at Wembley.

I really hope that this is because it is a GB team (ie first time Women's GB team have played at Wembley), rather than first time women have played at Wembley. Surely the England Women's football team have played Wembley before?

Okay, so let's imagine you a NI or Welsh woman footballer. You want to play at the WC and the Euro's. Do you want to play for NI/Wales, or do you want to compete against women from the other three nations as well as your own for a place in the GB squad? You come from a smaller catchment where your chances of being picked are greater. If you are in a larger pool, including Scots and English (who have far more players to choose from), then your chances of representing your country are reduced dramatically. Plus the Scots and English FAs have much more money, better infrastructure, better training facilities etc. So it's an uneven playing field from day one.

Of course, if you want to stick your head in the sand and sing 'Nah nah, nasty menz....', please carry on. But to move to a GB squad will lessen some women's (and men's) chances of representing the country of their birth, and I don't think they would thank you for it.

namechange, surely I would want there to be more female players playing for lots of teams ... more like the men?

Is that too hard to understand?

LRD, no it isnt hard to understand. Which is why I am saying that permanently having four UK teams is better than having one GB team. Some people on here are arguing that it's a sexist thing. It isn't. It's a national identity thing. I think you and I are agreeing.

"Of course, if you want to stick your head in the sand and sing 'Nah nah, nasty menz....', please carry on."

FGS Namechangeguy, why don't you read the rest of the thread and you'll see how happy we all are that men and women are supporting each other so why on earth you are making out that we are looking for reasons to denigrate men is not only beyond me, but it's irritating as well as inaccurate.

You may well be right about the politics of the previous Olympics, but you can hardly deny that FA support for women's football has been lacking in the past, and that women footballers have faced all manner of obstacles (funding, support, etc) that men footballers simply haven't. Call it whatever you want, deny it's sexism, I don't care, I'm talking about the effect not the "complicated" reasons that you are so quick to offer.

But I get the feeling that I am talking to a brick wall because you obviously have an agenda that you are sticking to, so to quote yourself back at you:

Of course, if you want to stick your head in the sand and sing 'oh you overreacting feminists....', please carry on.

Now, jog on and stop ruining my high

I doubt it, TBH.

Answer me this: does women's football have as high a profile, and as much funding as men's?

Did a group of female footballers, as well financed and supported as the men, with equal clout in an organization, get together and decide how to form up teams for themselves?

the point is that the biggest competition in women's football is the Olympics. And British women of every nationality are prevented from competing in it because of the needs of the men's teams. So they ALL lose out.

Realistically, is a talented Wales or NI footballer going to have a better chance of competing internationally in a Welsh team or a GB team? A GB team, right? And that goes for women AND men, of course. And a GB team would theoretically be better because they had a wider pool of talent to draw from. One of the advantages - for the men - of fielding a Team GB is that Ryan Giggs has finally been able to play in a proper top flight international tournament. So everybody has more to gain from having a GB football team instead of English, Welsh, etc. teams.

But we don't because the individual FAs don't want to lose their autonomy. Who benefits from this? Well I don't think anybody does, but the women least of all because they're prevented from playing in the biggest tournament of their sport.

If there was a technical issue preventing the men's team from competing in the World Cup, don't you think that would be overcome? And do you think that they would give a shit if overcoming that issue meant disadvantaging the women - of course not!

messy, you're right, I should just stop responding.

I don't get why it's so much fun to insist that every good thing that happens to women should be belittled, and every time we get happy because women are triumphing over the odds, someone has to come along and pretend there were no odds against them.

If you don't believe women have anything to struggle against, and we're all being silly to be excited about this stuff ... why bother posting about it? Why not just accept we're daft to be happy and go talk about something else?

Personally, I find it sweet and amusing that an American mate of mine feels that the American successes 'prove' the USA is the land of the free. I just don't see the connection. But I'm not about to rain on her parade by posting on her happy threads about medals with 'ooh, you're all shit and you know it'.

LRD - The Chinese have won more medals than the US. Obviously it's all due to their enlightened liberal democracy......

LRD exactly. Let's not it ruin our happiness.

Whatever you do, don't point out to your friend that the Chinese have won more medals and therefore must be "freer" than the US!!

Did you watch the badminton controversy by the way? It was very naughty of the Chinese IMO.

xposts Treats !

treats - well, my thinking exactly! But there's a time and a place, and when my mate is thrilled that the American women won gold, I'm not going to grudge her exclaiming that it's proof of America's general all-round loveliness ... she's excited and happy.

messy - no, I didn't see, I'm afraid. It's not a sport I know about.

I am still fuming that the Guardian still has on the front page that the Korean woman 'protested' which is total bollocks. Does anyone know how you write to them online, when there's no comments tab on the article?

HipHopSkip, gymnastics for boys has grown in recent years, partly down to successful role models like Louis Smith. DD's gym club now has a dedicated boys' section for artistic gymnastics. Rhythmics remains all-female.

One last attempt at a reasonable discourse;

'Answer me this: does women's football have as high a profile, and as much funding as men's?'

How many people here go and watch women's football on a regular basis? Because that is where the high profile, and the funding, come from. If you want to improve the game, support it.

'If all you have is a hammer, everything has to look like a nail...'

wrt the football, is the women's FA still 'owned' by the mens? which means they had to abide by their decision? I'm not a supporter of separatism for lots of reasons, but in this case I'd have been mighty tempted to just set up a female GB FA and go anyway.

One thing's for sure, whatever the politics behind the FA, you're more likely to get selected for an event if your team is taking part.

I do wonder why football is so 'regimented' and always appears to have been. Rugby has England/Scotland/Wales, an all-Irish team, and has the 5 lions. If rugby can see that different competitions can have different teams, then why can't the FA? And rugby is being played by team GB at the Olympics.

I note that team GB is taking part in football this time around - so, have the FA decided that they're not under threat, or is it OK to do this when the men are playing as well?

A negative today, in relation to the women's rowing gold: The Guardian's blogger has quoted Marina Hyde:
according to a recent study female athletes tend to be depicted in the media as more reliant on others ? for instance coaches, team-mates, and family members ? than their male equivalents, as expressed through more frequent TV camera shots of their interactions with these individuals. Just before Stanning and Glover received their gold medals just then, the BBC commentator said: "There are really three people on that podium," and told us not to forget British rowing coach Robin Williams.

x-post with name change, hadn't read his last bit.

I think the relationship between coaches & athletes sounds really quite complex. I live in US, so have American examples. Having watched some swimming and gymnastics, they also placed a lot of emphasis on the relationship between Michael Phelps and his coach. There was also discussion about one of the gymnasts who left home to live with her coach and almost dropped out because she found that too hard.

The coaches do seem to take on a parenting role, and I do wonder how that affects the development of the person when their lives become so focussed around their sport from such an early age.

A tangent I know, but I am always fascinated by what it must be like to grow up under that kind of pressure. When you see shots of the parents in the audience I wonder what it's like to be the observer, when the coach is down there and involved.

Kickass, here is the stance of the Scottish FA, on behalf of themselves and the Welsh and NI FA's:

www.scottishfa.co.uk/scottish_fa_news.cfm?page=2550&newsID=8002

The team GB thing is purely because LOCOG wanted representation in all events if possible. Even then, the other FA's could not overcome their stance. C'est la vie!