Supporting abortion to term.

[VegansTasteBetter]

Asking this question in feminism because, 1. I don't want a pro/against bunfight and 2 because I have only ever seen this comment made by feminists. *

I have seen the comment made that someone would support an abortion up until term for any reason (so in theory just because they changed their mind would be acceptable I guess).

If you take this stance is it because you feel to decide a cut off date for abortions would be to choose an arbitrary date in a pregnancy and that we need legally to have free access to abortions... but actually if your mate said, "just found out I am 37 weeks pregnant really don't want it, going for an abortion" you would be horrified and because you know it isn't likely to ever happen

or

if in the above scenario would you happily (assuming it were legal) take your friend down to the clinic to get an abortion because you belive the mother's choice trumps the fetus/babies right to life?

I'm prochoice but I have a real difficulty with people saying that it's acceptable for any reason up till term. And in the above scenario (if it were legal) I'd support my friend's right to demand to be induced early for her mental health and to give the baby up for adoption but not for an abortion.

• disclaimer: I am a feminist but don't support this view

The thought that I should be forced to continue a pregnancy that could kill me makes my skin crawl.

"plus, the baby should be delivered and ever attempt should be made to save him/her."

even if the parents don't want the baby? Are you going to suggest that they be forced to have the baby adopted? How horrible.

The thought that I should be forced to continue a pregnancy that could kill me makes my skin crawl.

To some extent any pregnancy could kill you.

The thought that I should be forced to continue with any pregnancy makes my skin crawl.

The abortion to term idea is the main reason I could never identify myself as a radical feminist. <

It is possible to oppose abortion and identify as a radical feminist, in fact, if one takes radical to mean root, then I think it makes more sense to oppose abortion as a radical feminist.

I think, as I said earlier, that abortion benefits society, rather than women - because it makes it easier for society not to cater for women's needs, for example, abortion is cheaper than providing proper support for women as mothers and for children, and I mean, childcare and financial support. It also means that men can continue to demand PIV sex in the knowledge that women will bear the burden of carrying or aborting a child; in fact, it makes it worse, because men/families/society can pressure women into abortions rather than stepping up to the plate and providing support. Abortion allows men to continue to exploit women sexually.

In other words, one can hold the view that abortion does not liberate women, it merely ingrains existing gender inequalities with the added burden for women of an invasive surgical procedure and the emotional stress of having to choose to end a (potential) life.

Also, abortion is an act of violence and feminism should be about non-violence. (I reject the analogy above with a just war - how can you wage war on a foetus?)

So I totally reject the view that one has to support abortion to be a (radical) feminist.

The thought that I should be forced to continue a pregnancy that could kill me makes my skin crawl.

Agree summerflower

To be a feminist you just have to have the best interests of women at heart. We're all different. I suppose technically I'm a radical feminist but no one other than a partner would ever truly know that. Anyone else would think I was just very passionate about my chosen career.

Where has anyone on this thread said that women should be forced to continue an unwanted pregnancy? Have I missed some posts?

Can you explain, DuelingFanjo, why it is more horrible for the baby to be adopted than killed? From whose perspective? The parents have the baby removed from their lives either way.

summerflower - I am very much in favour of changing society so that there is minimal demand for abortion (e.g. 100% reliable easily available contraception, no rape/coerced sex, lots of support for unexpectedly pregnant women who want to continue the pregnancy).

But the situation for women before abortion was legal was not that great, was it?

Sgb you clearly have an issue with men and it is clouding your judgement on on your opinion of other women debating this subject. We are not stupid or sentimental or owned by men we are perfectly capable of thinking for ourselves and are not selfish enough to believe a pregnancy is all about us as women. It also involves the life being created.

No they don't. I have so many adopted friends who sought out their birth parents...Always ended in extreme hurt. If I hadn't had an abortion and gone the adoption road, I wouldn't want anything to do with the child. If one day s/he knocked on my doorstep, 'd have no honest answer other than I was raped by a family member and the thought of seeing you day in day out made me suicidal.

That would torture me and the poor kid.

And women who don't WANT a child aren't selfish for aborting what to us, is cells.

I've had two glasses of bubbly so I'll be a little more honest than I should. I didn't care whether my foetus was cells, a blob or a human. All I knew was it needed to be out of me or I'd kill myself. The thought of that parasite growing inside me, knowing it's lineage drove me to physical and mental illness'

That's why I support late term abortion. Here in Aus we have people arriving by the boatloads, and some of them are in the exact same situation I was, except 'too pregnant.' They were suicidal at the thought of birth.

I wish women didn't turn against each other in these conversations. :(

I'm adopted and haven't contacted my birth family. Honestly if you are going to carry a baby to term why not just give the baby up for adoption?

I have a fantastic adoptive family and I love them so much, but because the decision was made pretty much at birth I bonded do well with them and has no attachment disorder.

I could not support full term abortion, I am so grateful that although my mum couldn't care for me I still had a chance

"Where has anyone on this thread said that women should be forced to continue an unwanted pregnancy?"

los of people (or maybe the same people over and over?) have suggested that unwanted babies should be allowed to be born after 24 weeks, pregnancies should be induced and so on.

"If the options are continue with an unwanted pregnancy, have a late abortion or be induced early then none of them are great, but if you wanted to end your pregnancy I don't see why induction/c-section would automatically be worse than abortion. Having the option to give birth early seems to me much better than being forced to stay pregnant."

"'I believe a woman has the right to have the foetus removed from her body ay any point until birth. But I don't believe she has any right to request it be killed. So if the foetus is past 24 weeks, she should have labour induced or a c-section, and the baby become the ward of the state, to be given up for adoption. I really don't see why termination of a pregnancy necessarily means the death of the foetus.' "

just a couple of examples.

When I talk about adoption I mean that I think it's a horrible idea that parents be forced to give birth to a baby they don't want to give birth to and then give it up for adoption. They do not want to have a baby, birth a baby, bring a baby into the world. If Adoption was a choice they wanted to make then they wouldn't be considering an abortion.

Rather an adopted baby than a dead one dueling

summerflower, I don't want to go too much into the just war thing as it is a construct of a belief-system I disagree with. However, I was noting that within that belief system (the doctrine of the catholic church) sometimes the killing of innocents can be accepted as an unfortunate consequence of doing the right thing. The war is not waged on the innocents, of course. Nor has war itself got anything to do with the rights and wrongs of abortion.

I just brought that up because I think it is interesting that absolutism within a belief-system is ALWAYS selective. There are always nuances and shades of meaning available in favour of things you really care about. For instance, within the Catholic church, it is more important to retain the right to wage war than to protect a woman from a dangerous pregnancy.

"Sgb you clearly have an issue with men and it is clouding your judgement on on your opinion of other women debating this subject"

oooh sheesh - lazy dig.

I'm really happy for you Kayano. :) I've always wanted to adopt.

I guess just IME, the women wanting abortions late term instead of adoption had reasons none of us can judge.

Hi Lurking, hope you are OK. I know what you mean, about desperately, absolutely, totally not wanting to be pregnant.

But they have to give birth to the baby regardless furling. I they have it at 28 weeks say and the baby lives, do they say

'I'm not ready to be a parent, please give the baby to someone who is'

Or

'i am not ready to be a parent, can you please kill that baby'

No, I couldn't. The baby is already born!

I know where SGB is coming from. Our abortion laws, that are very constraining on women, and which force us to pretty much pretend we are mad in order to assert our bodily autonomy, are given to us by Parliament. And Parliament's a pretty male-dominated institution. In fact most of the insitutions associated with the debates - e.g. church, medicine - tend to have have been historically male-dominated at the top.

"I could not support full term abortion, I am so grateful that although my mum couldn't care for me I still had a chance"

the fact is that you can only be grateful because you were born. for an aborted Foetus, whatever the gestation, being grateful doesn't come into it.

I think the law here would possibly allow it in certain circumstances, namely because the unborn child is not seen as an individual whereas it is in other countries, I seem to recall a case in the US where a pregnant women was murdered and her killer was charged with two murders - that doesn't happen here AFAIK. There was a pregnant woman (Marie...?) who was murdered by the side of a motorway when her car broke down and her killer wasn't charged with two murders.
I would not be at all happy to assist a friend in having an abortion, it'd be her choice but I'd want no part of it. That said, I'd be supportive and not judgmental (well maybe privately to myself) towards her afterwards if needed.

Do try to get to grips with the basic truth 'late abortion for social reasons' occurs, or is even thought about in such tiny, tiny numbers that it is pretty much a myth. Yet it's always chucked about to back up this idea that women cannot be trusted to choose for themselves, that if given the freedom to abort up to term they will all be rushing off to do it. Allowing access to it in principal is a right I support completely, because setting any limits on when abortion can be performed is an unnecessary restriction on women's freedom and autonomy. It's up to women to choose, end of. Once you start insisting on personhood for foetuses, it's immediately very easy to place restrictions on women;s behaviour - should they be allowed to drive in late pregnancy? Play sport? Have a glass of wine? Oh but, you don't know how far along you are really, better stay in bed and do what you're told... Plenty of 'personhood for foetuses' advocates want to insist on legal controls over the behaviour of women of childbearing age never mind if they are celibate/know they are infertile/have been sterilised.

I do, of course, agree that no woman should be coerced into ending her pregnancy, either. But we're only going to manage that when it becomes accepted and enshrined in law that the only person who gets to make the choice of whether a pregnancy continues or not is the pregnant woman.

I should add the abortion I had was 100% illegal. THAT is how desperate I was. Thankfully nothing went wrong, obviously it could have been a tragic outcome. Abortion only became legal in my state in 2008.

My nanna was the most rigid Roman Catholic you'd ever meet. he supported abortion. In the 30's, her best friend died in a back alley abortion. She strongly disapproved of abortion, but she used to tell me as a child (behind my mother's back she taught me a lot of things about women's rights ironically) that no one should bled out in a garage because of poor medical service.

It was her comments about her friend that gave me the strength to do it, even though I knew the risks. And I did it later than some here would likely approve of. I was a child, impregnated by my father in a country where abortion was illegal.

Do you think I'm a baby killer? (A term used by a post I reported and was subsequently deleted) Or were my circumstances tragic enough on some imaginary scale that it was okay?

No, I don't think you are a baby killer - you were in an impossible situation and did what you thought was best, which is all any of us can do. I don't agree with it but we all have the right to make our own decision and you did what you thought was best. I wouldn't judge you for that, nor should anybody.