Supporting abortion to term.

[VegansTasteBetter]

Asking this question in feminism because, 1. I don't want a pro/against bunfight and 2 because I have only ever seen this comment made by feminists. *

I have seen the comment made that someone would support an abortion up until term for any reason (so in theory just because they changed their mind would be acceptable I guess).

If you take this stance is it because you feel to decide a cut off date for abortions would be to choose an arbitrary date in a pregnancy and that we need legally to have free access to abortions... but actually if your mate said, "just found out I am 37 weeks pregnant really don't want it, going for an abortion" you would be horrified and because you know it isn't likely to ever happen

or

if in the above scenario would you happily (assuming it were legal) take your friend down to the clinic to get an abortion because you belive the mother's choice trumps the fetus/babies right to life?

I'm prochoice but I have a real difficulty with people saying that it's acceptable for any reason up till term. And in the above scenario (if it were legal) I'd support my friend's right to demand to be induced early for her mental health and to give the baby up for adoption but not for an abortion.

• disclaimer: I am a feminist but don't support this view

I'm sure that very few women would want to terminate at 35+ weeks, and even fewer would do so without a lot of thought and heart ache. Presumably, though, there are women who would have good reason to want to abort in late pregnancy (or is this debate purely hypothetical?).

What is wrong with early induction as an alternative? I don't know but I imagine induction vs. late abortion are approximately as unpleasant as each other.

If abortion to term on demand were legalised, would it be OK if early delivery were also offered to women? Wouldn't more options give women greater control over their bodies?

No-one has yet answered the question why a 37 week baby can't be delivered alive, rather than 'aborted'.

Very few abortions take place at this stage, if it does it is usually for severe disability. The kind that is not compatable with life.

If a baby is born and dies after 10 mins the parents have to register the birth and the death. They have to organise a funeral. Some people prefer this option, some don't. If it is an aborted fetus, the parents can still have a funeral but don't have to register the birth and death.

Another reason for termination at this stage is hydrocephalus. This does not develop in the first trimestor, so abortion has to be second or third.

The skull of a baby/fetus with hydrocephalus can be 2.5 times the size of a normal skull. The baby/fetus will have severe brain damage, he/she/it will not survive outside the woumb. Virginal delivery is not possible.

There are therfore two options that preserve the health of the mother;

1. cesarean section

2. abortion

The contents of the uterus are cut up into pieces and delivered via a dilated cervix. In the US another procedure is used, the body is delivered but not the head. The skull is then pierced and suction applied, this removes the brain and causes the skull to colapse.

Obviously the ceserean has more risk and takes longer for the mther to recover.

I find it difficult to accept the change in status at birth because birth happens at different gestations. For the sake of argument what about a woman who has booked a termination at 27 weeks. What of she goes into premature labour the day before and the baby is born alive. Suddenly it's a fully formed person with rights. That distinction does not make sense to me.

I also do agree with the poster who stated that abortion can be a convenient thing for society, including men. Aren't there some feminist writers who argue that abortion does harm to women?

I think the cut off for abortion at 24 weeks for social reasons is correct. 24 week babies have a reasonable chance of survival with a great deal of medical intervention. A 14 week fetus has no chance.

Religious dogma (abortion of a 6 week old fetus is murder) and feminist dogma ( The complete right to choose and a 39 week old fetus is part of her body and so can be aborted is she chooses) are as unscientific and heartless as each other.

We need medical science to protect us from radicals on both sides.

Can I just point out that we do not have the legal right to abortion in the UK. The criteria legally are as follows:

"may be necessary

The reasons for an abortion possibly being necessary are set out in The Abortion Act 1967. These are:

• continuing with the pregnancy would be a greater risk to the woman's life than ending the pregnancy
• continuing with the pregnancy would involve a greater risk of injury to the woman's physical or mental health than would ending the pregnancy
• continuing with the pregnancy would be more of a risk to the physical or mental health of any of the woman's existing children
• there is a real risk that the child, if born, would have a serious physical or mental disability"

That's from NHS choices so I assume is up to date.
So all the people talking about women in the UK having access to abortion for "social reasons" (whatever does that mean anyway ) are not maybe conversant with the actual law.

Please also note that the law is entirely different in NI.

I think when women want an abortion because they don't want to have a baby it comes under #2 - injury to the woman's physical or mental health

Yes trills in practice the mental healthh clause is used to allow the vast majority of abortions.

But people are talking that the current law is correct as we have abortion on demand / for social reasons to 24 weeks. We do not.

I wonder how many / if any abortions are refused?

I'm just saying that while the law doesn't explicitly provide for "because I want an abortion", in practice there is a clear way of doing it. (I don't want to say "loophole", but can't think of the correct word)

I firmly believe that women should not have to jump through hoops to get rid of an unwanted pregnancy early on. I think abortion should be absolutely on demand up the age of viability, no need for any kind of "reason".

I guess with the law as it stands the current government could "tighten it up" easily if they want to as they would just need to issue new guidelines as to what can constitute enough reason under the current law.

Now there's a scary thought. Hope none of them are reading...

Really the law should be changed.

They already went and inspected all of the private abortion clinics on a whim as it seems to check that two doctors were signing off, which does indicate that they are keen to uphold the law in this area. The organisation who had to do it were really pissed off as they had to shelve all of their inspection plans at short notice and it cost a bomb.

here

What I find heartless is the idea that it's OK to insist that other women risk their lives continuing with unwanted pregnancies, just to satisfy someone else's idiot superstition and unthinking sentimentality. The antichoice position always starts with the idea that women are mad, feral, unfeeling, selfish and their behaviour must be controlled by men and the law, or they will be aborting all over the shop in no time.

What the actual fuck does being controlled by men have to do with it? Is it only men that insist on women not having abortions then? It is not OK to insist a woman risks her life to continue a pregnancy - or are you saying that because there is an element of risk in every pregnancy if the woman decides for "social reasons" that she doesn't want the child she should be able to end it at any time??

Its not a feminist issue, its a human rights issue.

The woman tends to call the shots anyway by definition, she is carryin the baby so if she decides she wants an abortion (early) the father has no say in it :( I believe this is wrong.

SW that is just the British fudge, though. We have abotion on demand up to I think 24 weeks. Why we don't just say so I have no idea but that is the practical reality.

You also have a right to refuse intervention in childbirth even if your child dies. I found that thought very comfiorting when I was having my twins - my body, my children, my choice.

Human rights isn't far to bring up. A foetus isn't by law a human. As soon as it has rights, we're all screwed.

What a vile thing to say lurking :( So all those mothers who are grieving for lost babies should just get a grip and realise it wasn't human because it never got to be born. Maybe we should advote in utero experimentatin as well then, after all it isn't human yet and doesn't have the right to protection.

"continuing with the pregnancy would involve a greater risk of injury to the woman's physical or mental health than would ending the pregnancy"

As it is physically safer to have an abortion before 24 weeks than to deliver a live baby after it, we do effectively have abortion on demand pre 24 weeks.

No, no one should say (or is saying) to women who have lost babies late in pregnancy that the babies didn't matter or weren't human. The difference is that the women percieved those lost pregnancies as babies, and grieved over them. Again, it comes down to it being a matter of what the woman wants and what the woman feels.
Abortion law is not based on women's needs and wishes and never has been, because all the official thinking on abortion is (like all of human society) rooted in the belief that women and children both belong to men, not themselves.

But SGB, hardly anyone on this thread has said they want women to be forced to continue pregnancies. The general consensus is that women should be allowed to remove a foetus from their bodies whenever they damn well like.

And what is this superstition you keep talking about?

Are you even reading the thread?

It's not vile, it's true. If foetus' are considered human there is no abortion and women can be put on trial for murder. There is a reason they are not protected under Human Rights.

If you're anti-abortion that's fine, everyone is entitled to their own opinions but miscarriage and abortion are vastly different things. I do know that, lots of personal experience with both. That's a very emotive strawman.

Yes, I support abortion up to term. Personal reasons, I'm not ashamed of it and I am not vile. :)

This link of Margerykemp's is brilliant:
m.jme.bmj.com/content/27/suppl_2/ii10.full

I am re-posting it because some posters are posting as if they haven't read it.

I think it is very important that we have some subtlety and nuance in discussions about abortions, women's rights, fetal rights. I think it is absolutely useless to get all angry and sad because to some women, a 24 week foetus is, effectively, a beloved and wanted baby. You don't disrespect those women or their very real love for their very real babies by holding a conversation about other foetuses and other circumstances.

I am coming to this as an ex-Catholic who was repeatedly subjected to very nasty anti-abortion propaganda at my convent school. It was based on a very absolutist idea that all abortion is murder and therefore unthinkably wrong under any circumstances. Yet the Catholic church holds that there is such a thing as just war. There are times, we were told, when waging war and killing innocents is unfortunately the moral thing to do. (I have to say that I'm not big on war myself but I am very glad that the Nazis were opposed, by the only means available, bombs and bullets.) Why does the church allow for moral nuance with the killing of innocents (not that Nazis are innocents, but the children in Dresden for instance) in some contexts, but not others?

By the way I do not actually myself necessarily view an abortion as the killing of an innocent, but even if I did it would not be crazy to say it is sometimes ok, by analogy with a just war.

No, no one should say (or is saying) to women who have lost babies late in pregnancy that the babies didn't matter or weren't human. The difference is that the women percieved those lost pregnancies as babies, and grieved over them. Again, it comes down to it being a matter of what the woman wants and what the woman feels.

Agreed solid before 24 weeks, but if the mother's life is in peril during pregnancy and the fetus is 24 weeks plus, the baby should be delivered and ever attempt should be made to save him/her. (Though the woman's life should be prioritised) A woman should not be allowed to terminate the fetus after 24 weeks.

The abortion to term idea is the main reason I could never identify myself as a radical feminist. It is as horrible as the right ring Christian view that life begins at conception.