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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Supporting abortion to term.

676 replies

VegansTasteBetter · 27/07/2012 20:01

Asking this question in feminism because, 1. I don't want a pro/against bunfight and 2 because I have only ever seen this comment made by feminists. *

I have seen the comment made that someone would support an abortion up until term for any reason (so in theory just because they changed their mind would be acceptable I guess).

If you take this stance is it because you feel to decide a cut off date for abortions would be to choose an arbitrary date in a pregnancy and that we need legally to have free access to abortions... but actually if your mate said, "just found out I am 37 weeks pregnant really don't want it, going for an abortion" you would be horrified and because you know it isn't likely to ever happen

or

if in the above scenario would you happily (assuming it were legal) take your friend down to the clinic to get an abortion because you belive the mother's choice trumps the fetus/babies right to life?

I'm prochoice but I have a real difficulty with people saying that it's acceptable for any reason up till term. And in the above scenario (if it were legal) I'd support my friend's right to demand to be induced early for her mental health and to give the baby up for adoption but not for an abortion.

  • disclaimer: I am a feminist but don't support this view
OP posts:
SardineQueen · 28/07/2012 22:06

As I have pointed out
The UK statistics show that even with time to find out you are pregnant, and time to see GP and wait for procedure, the vast majority of abortions are carried out before 12 weeks.
Ones after 20 weeks (still 4 weeks before legal cut-off remember) are rarer and will include the people who abort later for reasons related to disability.
Women who are cruel and evil have the option of a. procuring or inducing abortions later or b. murdering the baby shortly after birth. Reading the papers tells me that these events are extremely rare.
The picture of women as stupid, feckless, selfish creatures who will carry a pregnancy to term, with all of the physical discomfort and often pain and worse that that involves, and will then decide at term to abort, even though that will be abhorrent to all around her - workmates family friends and so on - and who sticks with that idea though the counselling and so on that would undoubtedly happen - and presuming this woman is sane and not being coerced or is terrified.....
Yet still people choose to believe that women are the sort of people who will beat a newborn to death with a cricket bat just on a whim.

Well Hmm to that.

solidgoldbrass · 28/07/2012 22:07

K999: Oh, the sort of people who will shoot doctors and bomb women's health centres, maybe?

SuperScrimper · 28/07/2012 22:09

I don't know what you think the rates of hydrocephalus is but, no I didn't come across a case of it in 4 months in a small African town Hmm

We had many many underage pregnancies. Not 12 but 14 and 15. With all of them it was about making sure they gave birth in a clean, safe environment. That they had help and support after the birth. You know, the sort of things I want to be available to all Mothers and babies.

K999 · 28/07/2012 22:09

If men were the ones having babies, would you support their decisions to abort at full term? (genuine interested question??) i am guessing that the answer is yes if the argument is based on 'choice'

SuperScrimper · 28/07/2012 22:11

'shoot doctors' 'bomb women's health centres'.... That is the small, small minority.

The VAST majority of pro life supporters want to protect unborn children, not murder adults! All life is precious.

LadySybil · 28/07/2012 22:12

just adding my tuppence

I think abortions to term for any reason are unacceptable in a civiised society. the 23 week cutoff is pretty good imo. It could be raised to 29 weeks, but, 23 works for me.
abortions to term shouldnt be illegal however, as there can be good medical reasons for them, however rare they might be.

SardineQueen · 28/07/2012 22:12

If men were the ones having babies there wouldn't be the question.

No man would be forced to do something that was as detrimental as pregnancy and childbirth if they did not want to.

Christ men had the power of life or death over their children until relatively recently in historical terms. And still do from what I can see in much of the world.

LurkingAndLearningLovesCats · 28/07/2012 22:14

Ahh of course, when all else fails, ask if you'd feel the same if it was a man, because as proven we're all man hating evil harpies. THAT'S the real reason why we support full term abortion. Mwahahhahahhaha Hmm

I'll play along, Yes, I would. His body, his choice. (Feel ridiculous saying that)

K999 · 28/07/2012 22:16

Ok, but doesn't answer my question Confused

Would you agree that they would have the right to choose to abort at full term? And am not trying to inflame the situation - am genuinely interested. I'd hate to think that DP could make that choice on his own!!

K999 · 28/07/2012 22:18

Lurking - am not using the "if all else fails" argument. I'm trying to understand this issue a bit better.

solidgoldbrass · 28/07/2012 22:20

K999: Yes, of course I would support men's right to abortion if men were the ones who got pregnant.

Superscrimper: it's good that you and your colleagues worked to provide a safe environment for childbirth. Were there really never any cases where a termination would have been a better option for the mother? And if there were, what was the policy: protect the foetus or care for the woman?

SardineQueen · 28/07/2012 22:20

Oh and thank you lurking Smile

LurkingAndLearningLovesCats · 28/07/2012 22:20

How does feminist opinion on an impossible hypothetical help you understand 'the issue' better? Confused Or does it help you understand the people who support the issue better?

LineRunnerSpartanNaked · 28/07/2012 22:22

I think is allows me to ask the question, Is this my body or does it belong to the state/the church/a male head of the household.

SardineQueen · 28/07/2012 22:23

Of course I would support their choice.
It's their body.
Pregnancy is tough and risky. Ditto childbirth.
I would not make someone do it if they did not want to.

i think it should be the other way. Make it legal to term for choice. Keep an eye on it for a couple of years. If it turns out that women are choosing to undergo longer pregnancies before aborting, then think how to tackle that.

But fact is, they wont. Because women are not intrinsically cruel and unfeeling. The people who have late abortions will - as at the moment - have a very good reason.

SardineQueen · 28/07/2012 22:24

This does all stem from an idea that women are basically horrible, doesn't it?

sunshine401 · 28/07/2012 22:24

Other than a serious medcial condition that was not found out in time why would anyone wait till full term to suddenly want an abortion??
No one would surely??
Does'nt that make this question pointless ??

K999 · 28/07/2012 22:26

You know what Lurking, I have no idea. And I am bowing out of this thread now as I find the feminism area of MN too aggressive.

Tis a pity as I do sometimes find this topic quite interesting. Oh well back off to "chat" and "baby names " I go.

SardineQueen · 28/07/2012 22:27

Whereas in fact the people who have throughout history looked after children, is women.
Men have done a lot of damage and continue to do so.
Because they need to have control, because they need to marry a virgin, because they are so much more important than anyone else. All that stuff.
Around the world, it is women who care for children, and men who don't.
Generalisations, obviously.
But still, in this one issue, we have to turn away from the accepted right-wing concept and fact in all countries frankly as "mother as carer" and on this one thing, this single thing, accept mother as cold "child" killer.

It doesn't make any sense. It really doesn't.

cogitosum · 28/07/2012 22:28

I'm conflicted on this as it's so hard to think about but fundamentally, as someone who is pro choice I have to come down in favour of supporting to full term. My reason for this is touched on in the op. Basically it's because choosing a point to stop allowing or being in favour if abortion is completely arbitrary. Those saying you support to 12 weeks, 14 weeks, 24 weeks or any other point what of someone was 12 weeks and one day? One hour? There is no definitive point a pregnancy becomes 'viable'. There may be a point when it's possible or even probable that a baby could survive but this point is fluid. It's impossible to give a definitive gestation at which this point is defined.

SardineQueen · 28/07/2012 22:34

sunshine

well, quite.

it is a philosophical / logical point.
about female bodily autonomy
which always gets overtaken by people who honestly think women are so dead set on having late term abortions that they must be prevented from doing so by law

LineRunnerSpartanNaked · 28/07/2012 22:34

I think the whole issue is riven with hypocrisy. I would like those who espouse 'right to life' to explain why, if appripriate, they fail to eschew capital punishment.

I would like those who revere motherhood to allow mothers to have the means to bring up children.

I would like to have autononomy over my body, in this country.

sunshine401 · 28/07/2012 22:35

SardineQueen >> You sound very bitter about men!! Women are just as bad you know .
In this world you get some lovely men and women however you also get the evil horrible men AND women works both ways its sad to say :(

solidgoldbrass · 28/07/2012 22:35

GIven the numbers of women and children who die during the birth process due to inadequate, underfunded maternity care, and the numbers of children who die in infancy due to poverty and preventable diseases, it disgusts me that there are so many whinyarses trying to restrict access to abortion by peddling hypothetical horror stories and going boohoo, poor ickle babies. Being anti-abortion is never about 'loving babies' it's always about hating women and wanting them to be controlled by the state.

SardineQueen · 28/07/2012 22:38

sunshine well yes in the UK
go to afghanistan, pakistan, parts of africa, and it is a very different picture
That's not about being bitter, it's just a fact
even in the west women are generally the primary carers
there are plenty of women on MN with men who have left and have little or no interest in the children and it seems to happen quite a lot

Not bitter though. i am very lucky in that I have nothing to be bitter about Smile