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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

'Tragic Family Situation' - murder of children, apparently by their father.

183 replies

Northernlurker · 16/07/2012 19:37

There is a horrible case in the news today. A father and three children disappeared from the home. Today the children were found stabbed and the father appears to thrown himself off a nearby quarry edge.
The police have confirmed they aren't looking for anyone else and one officer commented ''It appears to be a tragic family situation.' Now I have a problem with that description.

What's tragic about this is that three children have been robbed of their lives. It appears that the person who should love and cherish them has planned their removal from the home and then killed them. This isn't an accident. There is nothing inevitable about this crime. It occurred as a result of one person's actions and choices and it's not a 'family situation' at all. It seems to me that describing it as such detracts from the true violence of the situation. The police describe it as a muder investigation. Why not leave it at that? Why the need to soften it?

OP posts:
catsrus · 17/07/2012 02:26

I noticed tha language being used to tone this down too. If you remove the familial relationship the headline would have been something along the lines of "children abducted and brutally murdered by a killer who appears to have then committed suicide"

Women who are with decent men find it hard to contemplate a father knowingly doing this, as do decent men themselves - but the threat of this kind of violence is very real for a lot of women and it absolutely is a feminist issue -as is awareness of the way in which language is used to sanitise male violence in the family sphere.

For fucks sake they were stabbed - I'm finding it hard to get much beyond their terror and pain to be honest. As a mother it's the stuff of nightmares.

sashh · 17/07/2012 04:25

I can't even think of reading about a female family annihilator in the papers.

Lianne Smith

news.sky.com/story/955604/mother-jailed-for-murdering-her-children

CheerfulYank · 17/07/2012 04:41

Andrea Yates drowned all of her children. I think she had four of them or maybe five.

AmberLeaf · 17/07/2012 07:28

Yes if he was just a man that lived down the rd and he took and stabbed those children to death it would be as above 'man abducts children, murders then then kills himself.

But because he is their father its as though its his right to kill them so it doesn't get called 'brutal murder' its just a nice delicate 'family tragedy'

SardineQueen · 17/07/2012 09:34

I am not sure what the point is of bringing the few cases where women have killed children to the thread.

The fact is that this is a crime carried out predominantly by men. It seems to happen pretty frequently. It is a phenomenon that has been studied in the US, who identified that the vast majority of people who do this are male.

Kritiq's post is very helpful and interesting that she said what pattern the reporting would follow - and was spot on - and she has not read anything about this case.

She also mentions that the crime tends to be different for women, with pre-existing mental health problems usually being present. This is well known. So women who are pregnant are screened quite carefully - their histories are taken, they are followed up after birth and so on. For lots of reasons obviously - the NHS want the best for new mothers and babies and there are plenty of agencies who get involved if there are problems.

Yet this is a minority of people killing children - MrGin loves to quote his NSPCC stat on these threads to show that women are just as bad so shut up feminists but sorry no they aren't. Men are demonstrably more violent than women, they are more likely to attack partners and kill them and rape (well women can't rape but YKWIM) more likely to be paedophiles, more likely to be family annihilators. the NSPCC stat does not take into account the small matter of opportunity and time with children. Women are the main carers and often sole carers and the stats need to reflect that to be meaningful.

It is important to talk about these things and most definitely how they are reported in the press. Because that forms people's views. Like rape myths. Same thing. Myths surrounding violence against women and children by men. They are being propagated by the press and in this case the police have joined in.

It seems that quite a lot of people would rather this subject were not discussed. Well it is the right of women to discuss this topic. If that upsets or annoys people then well I'm not sorry TBH because i don't see why we shouldn't talk about it.

SardineQueen · 17/07/2012 09:36

YY amberleaf. That reminds me. Last night I thought of Baby P and I tried to remember if the press had described that as a "tragic family situation". Do people on here think those words fit in that case? If not, why not? It was a "tragic family situation" according to definitions on here.

SardineQueen · 17/07/2012 09:38

Remember that Fritzl chap?
Tragic family situation? Yes?

If not WHY NOT?

drjohnsonscat · 17/07/2012 09:43

utterly fucking stupid and yet you still can't explain what you mean plumpdog.

If you don't want to discuss this case (perhaps understandable while it's not 100% confirmed what happened although I think it's now pretty obvious to everyone) perhaps you would prefer to explain in relation to one of the many other cases where this happens. I think describing something my sister said as utterly fucking stupid is pretty presumptuous while we are on the topic of presumptuous.

JugglingWithTangentialOranges · 17/07/2012 10:15

I agree that the police and media should remember that children have been murdered. If the father goes on to kill himself that doesn't give him an automatic "get out of jail free card" IYKWIM ( though obviously it does give him a get out from justice, recrimination, and having to live with the guilt of his actions in one sense )

A mother who we had remote connections with in our town killed her two children and then herself. I was slightly surprised at how much people seemed to regard it as a "tragic family situation" and not be more horrified at what she'd done.

I agree with some other posters that it seems to be becoming more common for both fathers and mothers to kill their children (and then often kill themselves too) However perhaps it is a feminist issue too, with more male violence within families than female.

I feel there should perhaps be more emphasis from police on it being a murder investigation, even when unlikely to be able to bring the perpetrator to justice.

The poor mother Sad

(And why does the Daily Mail on-line include her recent facebook entries from the days before this tragedy which are just completely ordinary and really have absolutely nothing to add ? She has absolutely no responsibility in the dreadful actions the father has taken here)

MissAnnersley · 17/07/2012 10:25

Yes I thought that was odd too Juggling but as it is the Mail presumed that it would be an attempt to shift the blame on to the mother by providing a 'reason', in this case, the 'mid life crisis'.

Did you read the comment by the landlord; father = nice, quiet guy, mother 'wore the trousers'.

As ever it's not absolutely blatant but you can see where it's going.

Northernlurker · 17/07/2012 10:29

Kritiq's post perfectly outlines why the facebook entries are being quoted - because the media is looking for an explanation and the place they go to for that is to blame the woman.

OP posts:
StewieGriffinsMom · 17/07/2012 10:33

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Alameda · 17/07/2012 10:39

Oi

you mean Andrea Yates not Paula

BalloonSlayer · 17/07/2012 10:43

I have a problem with every word of "tragic family situation." because:

  1. Tragic Tragedy is normally used to describe events which are either inevitable (in a dramatic sense) or beyond the control of humans. (in a tabloid sense). Neither of which I think apply in this instance.
  1. Family The mother is part of the family, and to describe it as a tragic family situation seemed to me to be implying that she was a factor in it. It seems to implicate her.
  1. Situation is a totally inadequate word. I can hardly think of a worse one, unless they used "pickle" or "kerfuffle." If it was going to be described as any sort of a "situation" I would rather it was described as an "evil and premeditated child-murderer situation." That, in my view, is more accurate.

I guess the thing is that "tragic family situation" is how the police see it, it's how they address it - the "situation" refers to the "situation" the police have got to deal with. What a shame they used this phrase to the press.

PlumpDogPillionaire · 17/07/2012 10:48

drjohnson - it seems to me that it's utterly fucking stupid to presume knowledge of the details of relationships of a family when the only knowledge that you have of that family is gleaned from popular press reports. It seems utterly fucking stupid to presume that an antagonistic is somehow 'involved' or 'responsible' for killings or violence commited by someone else. I don't think that my point of view here is particuarly contentious.
Is that clearer now?

As to the 'many other cases where this happens', do you mean the killing of children by fathers or a perceived style of reporting?

PlumpDogPillionaire · 17/07/2012 10:49

*antagonistic woman

KRITIQ · 17/07/2012 11:00

As a few others have said, no one is denying that women sometimes also kill their children and then themselves (or attempt to,) although I haven't come across any cases where they've also killed their partner nor fit the profile before the killing of displaying controlling or abusive behaviours towards their partner.

The context of men who kill partners and/or their children and women who kill their children is different. That's not excusing or justifying either, but pointing out the need for different types of prevention/early intervention activities in order to reduce the risks. If we are saying that parents-who-kill-their-children-are-all-the-same, perhaps to avoid thinking about the gender dimension, we are badly, badly letting down those children who in future could be murdered.

With regard to reporting, there are plenty of examples where immediately after a major incident, tabloid papers especially, and especially on their online sites, take the "publish and be damned" route. They include rumour, assumptions, hearsay and either shift it to the bottom of the article later when more information comes to light, delete it if it's likely to lead to litigation and/or print a retraction on page 37 when forced to later down the line.

So, I find the suggestion that the press are being socially responsible and exercising restraint by giving skeletal information and not drawing any conclusions a bit hard to swallow. This seems only to be the case in cases like this one.

Newspapers are revenue driven, not motivated by ethics, no matter what editors and managers insist. They print what will sell papers/earn web hits because those translate into advertising income. We know from the Levenson enquiry that the media aren't averse to skirting the boundaries of the law, or even leaping over them, if they think they can get away with it.

A neat formula for getting the "biggest bang for the buck" with a major incident story goes something like this: 1.) Shock the reader 2.) Provoke strong emotion (e.g. fear, anger, compassion, etc.) 3.) Reassure them.

The shock factor usually comes from the headline, photos and first few lines of the story. It also gives the "tone" for how we are supposed to feel about the incident, the perpetrator and the victim(s). Can the perpetrator be depicted as a monster, or will it play better to show some sympathy? Can the victim be depicted as innocent, or will it play better to suggest "flaws" that make the crime seem less bad?

Often the decision whether a case becomes headline news, how many column inches it's given and for how long, or even if it's reported beyond a brief statement at all will depend on whether it can be spun in a way that will sell.

So, young children killed by strange man with history of drug abuse and offending sells. Prostitute killed by her pimp or a john doesn't (although sometimes you get the grieving parents of the woman in a feature about how she went off the rails, etc., slight hint of victim blaming woven into it.)

Step 3, the reassurance bit is really important. If readers are too upset or repulsed by a crime, they'll switch off. So, reporters try and ensure readers won't feel personally too threatened, or at least get a message of what they can/should do to protect themselves.

Victim was a prostitute? You'll be fine. You're not a prostitute. Perpetrator was an ex-offender/immigrant/drug user/known thug? Keep your distance from all such people, write to your MP, etc. Woman was killed in a dodgy part of town/down a dark lane/on a date with someone she met on the net/etc.? Don't do any of those things and you'll be fine.

But, when the perpetrator is the father and partner of the victim(s), there is a problem. If he can be portrayed in the ex-offender/immigrant/drug user/known thug mould, that's fine, you know the drill. But, if he seems "just an ordinary father," there's a risk that folks might get worried by the thought that "ordinary fathers" could do something horrific for no reason, making it hard to reassure readers everything will be okay for them. They often scratch around for explanations (e.g. lost his job/worried about money/end of relationship/fear of losing children, etc.) to make his motivation seem more reasonable.

However, highlighting "flaws" in the character of the mother (e.g. having or rumoured to be having an affair/left or leaving relationship/spoilt or spent too much money/too bossy/etc.) then that deflects attention from the perpetrator, suggesting some culpability on the part of the victim. That's easy if she's already dead. A bit more dicey if not, but papers bank on the fact that few people will sue for libel.

So the "reassurance" factor is if seemingly "ordinary dads" kill their children and/or partners, there will be some exceptional circumstances that "drove" them to it (but don't worry because you/the men in your life aren't like that,) and on some level, they felt provoked by their partners (but don't worry because you/the women in your life would never do that.)

It basically becomes a cautionary tale for the reader. Men who feel provoked can be excused for their behaviour. Women, be careful not to do anything whatsoever that could even remotely be considered provocative.

PS: I still haven't read anything about this case and I'm not going to - wondering how much more I can "predict" about the reporting of it.

KRITIQ · 17/07/2012 11:04

Just a point about Andrea Yates - she killed her children 11 years ago and it was in the US. The fact that we have to go so far back and so far away to find examples that could in any way be compared to the more frequent and UK based cases of male "family annihilators" (and I don't think this one does,) is important when looking at proportion.

Again, not excusing either but saying we MUST make the distinction because strategies for prevention and early intervention HAVE to be very different if they are to save lives.

Dahlen · 17/07/2012 11:09

I think the anger with the press is spot on. Less so the anger directed at the police. They will be conducting a murder inquiry, under intense public scrutiny, and have to be very mindful of what they say, particularly anything that could jeopardise the public perception of their impartiality and anything that could be considered offensive to the family. Under that kind of remit, 'tragic family situation' is about the only thing they could say other than 'the children were murdered' (which they also said).

Obviously I have no authority to tell other people what they can and cannot disucss online, but I really don't think it's appropriate to discuss this important particular case though right now, while the facts are still not known. Yes there are very strong statistical trends (e.g. most family annihilators being DV perpetrators), but each case is unique and there is no way of knowing which follow the pattern and which do not. The father could have suffered a complete psychotic break for all we know. I feel the same about the endless press speculation, which is distasteful in the extreme. The hints about the mother being somehow responsible are beyond offensive. That poor, poor woman.

If I had any connection to those involved and I stumbled on the kind of speculation being thrown around in the press and online about the mother and father's relationship and motives, I would find it deeply distressing. These are real people, with real lives in real communities with people gossiping about them enough as it is. Until the facts are known, I think it would be more respectful to stick to cases that have already been closed. God knows there are enough of them about. Sad

PlumpDogPillionaire · 17/07/2012 11:13

Exactly, Dahlen.
WRT press reporting, how about the Fail's intrusion on this woman's privacy, btw?

ElephantsAndMiasmas · 17/07/2012 11:14

I would add to Kritiq's post, that you have to look out for two things:

  1. a single line miles down some report later on, detailing just how many times the perpetrator had previously had the police called on him or even been arrested for harming wife or kids. Or how the mother had tried to protect/warn police etc but was ignored.

  2. where reports mention mother's "infidelity" or "affair", it often turns out that in fact the couple were living apart and the relationship had started after the marriage/relationship with the killer had already ended. (Not that an affair is a killing offence, obviously, but the reporting often tries to make this excuse for violence).

SardineQueen · 17/07/2012 11:15

This case and the police statement is what provoked the op to post though.

"DETECTIVES said a ?tragic family situation? was to blame for a ­married father jumping off a cliff to his death after killing his three children at a woodland beauty spot."

This is not good, is it. It is not good for the police to say it, it is not unbiased. It is not good how it is being reported, blame is being apportioned.

It is just not good and the fact that Kritiq can predict what will be said without reading it is fascinating.

StewieGriffinsMom · 17/07/2012 11:17

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

StewieGriffinsMom · 17/07/2012 11:20

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ElephantsCanRemember · 17/07/2012 11:21

Totally agree Sardine. Slightly straying from the topic, but after reading other posts I have it interesting. When my mum killed herself the local newspaper made it headlines, saying she did it because she struggled with being a Guider (which she loved) and her H (my dad) was devastated, even though they (the press) had obviously been in court for the inquest and had heard about the violence he had inflicted on her. The whole page article was all about her guiding (wtf) and one sentence at the end saying their marriage was volatile.
I know it isn't the same and I am definitley not comparing my situation to others but I have found it interesting to look back and see how the press reported my mums death.