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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

'Tragic Family Situation' - murder of children, apparently by their father.

183 replies

Northernlurker · 16/07/2012 19:37

There is a horrible case in the news today. A father and three children disappeared from the home. Today the children were found stabbed and the father appears to thrown himself off a nearby quarry edge.
The police have confirmed they aren't looking for anyone else and one officer commented ''It appears to be a tragic family situation.' Now I have a problem with that description.

What's tragic about this is that three children have been robbed of their lives. It appears that the person who should love and cherish them has planned their removal from the home and then killed them. This isn't an accident. There is nothing inevitable about this crime. It occurred as a result of one person's actions and choices and it's not a 'family situation' at all. It seems to me that describing it as such detracts from the true violence of the situation. The police describe it as a muder investigation. Why not leave it at that? Why the need to soften it?

OP posts:
minceorotherwise · 16/07/2012 22:05

Actually I've just read the coverage and it's absolutely awful obviously
I don't actually feel comfortable talking in these terms about something so recent
I can't get past how horrific it must be for their poor Mum, talking about the terminology as a feminist issue (whilst I appreciate it is a valid point), is a bit much for me so I am going to bow out

ThatGhastlyWoman · 16/07/2012 22:05

Lucyellensmum has it spot on. If you are not involved, and are trying to judge what happened in a situation like this through reading stories on the internet or in the papers- frankly you have no right to pass comment on what the person involved did or did not intend.

A friend of mine's children were both killed in cold blood by their manipulative ex-partner, in a twisted act of revenge and control. We got to read in the press and online that people could not believe that the killer was anything other than ill in some way.. why? Because she was a woman.

Meanwhile, my father had bipolar, which gave him very severe delusions. He planned to kill the entire family on two occasions that I know of- out of a sense of compassion, if you can get your head around that (even I find it tricky!). He was one of the kindest, gentlest men you could ever meet. But if he had succeeded, he would have been portrayed as a monster by the media, for sure.

Two very different motivations, with potential to be misjudged largely because of gender stereotypes...

topknob · 16/07/2012 22:10

Lets face it, the father in this instance was a first class c*. I have no sympathy for him, whatever she did or didn't do, he had no right to take the lives of 3 children, no right at all !

UnlikelyAmazonian · 16/07/2012 22:13

Using 'murder' is quite appropriate in this case. They were murdered. That they have obviously been murdered isn't in question.

There's no need for the word tragic or family situation. These are horrific murders. i note actually, on the news t#I'm watching in progress, the reporter ben Ando says 'tragic and 'family' but the police officer at the press conference does not use either such phrase.

And Huff Post is being deliberately targeted.

PlumpDogPillionaire · 16/07/2012 22:14

Have reported this thread as some of the presumptous posts seem really inappropraite (to say the least).

PlumpDogPillionaire · 16/07/2012 22:16

Yes, they were murdered, seemingly not currently clear by whom, though. Perhaps it's worth remembering that as you're posting on a public forum.

thunksheadontable · 16/07/2012 22:17

I agree with Plump. There was an incident like this in my hometown many years ago. The father tried to drown himself and two children. He survived and was diagnosed paranoid schizophrenic after the event. Nothing to do with family background or revenge or infidelity - a tragic case of severe mental illness. His mother boards the 11.15 bus to the mental hospital every Wednesday to see him, such a tragedy for all concerned.

ElephantsCanRemember · 16/07/2012 22:19

For me it is the word "situation". I don't know why but it implies that this awful thing happened to his wife, DC and him. But the situation doesn't just happen to men like that, they are the orchestrators of it, the murderers. That word syas to me that they had no control over it.

topknob · 16/07/2012 22:23

Why report it??? Unless you think he had justification for killing 3 kids?

Mintyy · 16/07/2012 22:24

I don't think you can read what you like into it like that Elephants.

The police are very very restricted on what they can say.

There should be no place for speculation and spin-off debating so very soon after the event, amongst compassionate and civilised people, imho.

PlumpDogPillionaire · 16/07/2012 22:28

Mintyy's post should answer your question, topknob. And it's not actually known who killed those children.

ElephantsCanRemember · 16/07/2012 22:31

No you are right Mintyy. I should have said when reading about other proven murders and not mentioned this one. You are right, it isn't known about this one.

topknob · 16/07/2012 22:31

Erm yes it is on the Daily Fail website.

topknob · 16/07/2012 22:32

www.dailymail.co.uk/home/index.html

Northernlurker · 16/07/2012 22:54

The police are very clear about what they think has happened. It is their comment on that, that I am uncomfortable with. This thread isn't about speculating over what did or did not happened. It's about the way in which something that has happened has been described.
I absolutely agree with Elephants that a 'situation' is something that happens to you not something that is caused to happen. I know a lot of this is nuance - but we live our lives by that. A lot can turn on the way something is said or what is implied. The language we use to describe our acts is important.

OP posts:
UnlikelyAmazonian · 16/07/2012 22:56

agree with NL.

ElephantsCanRemember · 16/07/2012 23:03

A lot can turn on the way something is said or what is implied. The language we use to describe our acts is important.

I 100% agree with that.

solidgoldbrass · 16/07/2012 23:07

It is, of course, possible that the man who killed his children was suffering from a sudden and very serious psychotic illness. This does happen; there was a dreadful case a few years ago of a man who killed his toddler daughter: no previous history of abuse, severe psychosis that came on with very little warning.

But it is far more likely that this man will have a history of DV, that the children's mother had already evicted him from the home or was trying to do so, but that he got given unsupervised access because he was their father and therefore had rights. This is why unsupervised access should never be given against the mother's wishes where there has been any abuse at all: a genuinely non-abusive man with a vindictive XP would put up with seeing his children under supervision for a good long time in order to demonstrate that he is a decent bloke.

edam · 16/07/2012 23:19

MrGin, it's rather more complicated than the NSPCC topline figures. I think (IIRC) mothers kill more infants and fathers kill more children. Maternal killings are largely of small babies due to severe PND or post-puerperal psychosis. Paternal killings are of babies but also older children and are less closely and overwhelmingly linked to severe mental illness that removes criminal responsibility. Roughly, more men kill out of anger and more women kill out of despair - although individual cases will have their own individual features, you can't reason from general to specific of course.

AmberLeaf · 16/07/2012 23:22

I can well believe there are men that have or would do this out of spite to their wife/ex in the sort of example SGB outlines above.

KRITIQ · 16/07/2012 23:29

There are really two separate issues here. One is the phenomenon of the "family annihilator" and the other is how the media tends to report incidents where a man kills his partner and/or children, often before killing (or attempting to) himself. Both are certainly feminist issues.

This 2008 report on murder-suicides in the US, found that only about 5% of murder victims of murder-suicides are male and 74% were murdered by an intimate partner (who then committed suicide.)

This File on 4 programme from March of this year discusses similar features of cases where men kill their families and then themselves.

Family annihilators don't always have a history of mental illness. Many have been abusive towards their partners or at least have had quite "controlling" tendencies related to their families. Sometimes, they have careers where they are required to compete and/or are in positions of power and status. Conversely, they are in jobs of a lower status, but play out their need for power and control in the domestic sphere.

It seems they are most likely to kill if they feel their control over their partner and family is at risk. For example, they might have lost their job or been convicted of a crime or something else that means they feel they can no longer be the "provider." Most commonly, however, it happens when the relationship is breaking down or has ended, which signals to them that they are losing control of their family. Some will kill the children as the ultimate punishment for an ex partner, but it has also been suggested that those who kill their children and not their ex partner may do so simply because it is easier to get the opportunity to do so.

Once their family are dead, the man then literally has no purpose in life, if his obsession in life was to control them, so that's when he commits or attempts suicide.

Basically, the phenomenon seems to stem from a belief in male entitlement taken to an extreme. Although there are often signs that something could happen (e.g. man with history of abuse and/or control, experiences sudden change in his position and/or end of relationship, etc.) which agencies could pick up on, they are rarely noticed until after the incident. Even where the woman, a relative or friend reports concerns to the police, these concerns are rarely acted upon. Lives could be saved if there was greater awareness of the problem and a commitment to intervention to protect women and children at risk.

The media tend to be very, very coy in describing incidents where women are killed by their partners. Quite frequently it will be something very brief like, "A man and a woman in their mid 30's were found dead in Acacia Avenue this morning. The incident is being regarded as unexplained but no one else is being sought in connection with the killings." If you aren't paying attention and don't read between the lines, you won't "get" that it was probably a man who killed his partner then himself. While tabloids will splash lurid headlines about murder and violence, particularly where the perpetrators fit the model of "villain" quite neatly, it's as though hacks are afraid to frighten the horses if they more than whisper that a man has killed his partner in cold blood.

But, sometimes the stories break big, particularly where there are children killed. Then something of a "formula" is followed for reporting. Lots of photos of cute children, children smiling with their dad and happy family shots. Statements from friends, neighbours, teachers, etc. about how happy/pretty/clever the children were. Statements from co-workers, neighbours, friends about what a loving/caring/hardworking/committed father the killer was, with much hand wringing about what would "drive" him to do this. Comments about him being under pressure/depressed/stressed/worried generally follow.

Then there are almost always insinuations about the dead woman. She left him/was threatening to leave/was restricting access to the children/was having an affair/he thought she was having an affair/he was worried she would have an affair/she was demanding/she spent too much money, etc. Dead women tell no tales but there are always plenty of people willing to tell tales about them, whether there is any truth or not.

The goal of such reports really seems to tug the heartstrings over the loss of "innocent" children's lives, attempts to excuse or justify the man's actions and efforts to demonise the dead woman. If they succeed in this goal, then we can swiftly forget that women are far more at risk of being killed by a partner than a stranger. This stops us worrying about the inequity in many male / female relationships and the serious risks many women face from their partners.

It's late and I don't have time to look up more links, but most of the literature suggests that women who kill their children are more likely to have a previously diagnosed mental illness than men who kill their children. Women very, very rarely kill their partners then kill or attempt to kill themselves.

Northernlurker · 16/07/2012 23:39

Kritiq - that's a very helpful summary. You haven't seen the coverage of this event have you? It features beautiful pictures of the children and a remark from their laqndlord that the wife 'always seemed to wear the trousers'.

OP posts:
KRITIQ · 16/07/2012 23:58

Funnily enough, I haven't seen any reports of this specific case. But, they all follow a sort of "blueprint" and from what you've said, this one is no exception.

kickingKcurlyC · 17/07/2012 00:06

It is a tragedy for the mother. A terrible and tragic situation.
And for the extended family left behind.

Maybe that's all the statement was trying to say?

(I haven't seen any details of the story, I must add.)

lisaro · 17/07/2012 00:15

Have seen the aftermath of these situations professionally. In 99.9% these could be described in that way, though mental health make up the majority, the remainder may be badness. Don't tar all with that brush. This an unbelievably sad case which we know nothing about. So the description fits perfectly. Get over yourself OP and just feel sad for the people that are grieving.