Evening Standard refers to painting of older woman as "this ancient crone...ghastliness of ageing flesh... this repellent body."

[Bidisha]

www.bidisha-online.blogspot.co.uk/2012/07/this-ancient-crone.html

I would like to say that I did not mean what Xenia is saying

That's not really true though, is it xenia? Plenty of cultures don't associate weighing in the normal healthy range as being attractive at all. Likewise, to talk about dressing 'well' is pretty meaningless. Do you mean if I wear a ruff and accessorise with black teeth like a well-dressed Elizabethan, I'll be more attractive? I doubt it.

It is a subjective issue. This is pretty well understood, I think.

I have heard the stuff about proportions only really works with cultures that are Western or have been exposed to Western media, which I find really interesting. It might be what you are interpreting from your experiences is more to do with the increasing dominance of Western culture than anything else?

Exactly LRD, there are places now and there have been times in our history where lack of food and the fear of starvation has led to the ideal woman being very plump, symbolising of course that she is of high status and able to have to access as much food as she likes.

Yes. And it's not necessarily all long-ago-and-far-away either. You can buy bum-padded knickers alongside everything else on perfectly standard UK-based lingerie websites. Not everyone thinks slim=pretty, or even agrees about which areas 'should' ( at 'should') be curvy.

I agree with LRD that being gay does not mean you cannot see the beauty in the opposite sex. One of my close friends is a gay male - he is very aware of his appearance, always preening, and he loves to gossip - but one day he was looking at me funny across the table in Wetherspoons (we were a lot younger :o) and he said how beautiful looking he thought I was. I really have to add here this was a good ten years ago and pre-children and when I cared about my appearance. I have since joined the ranks of the unshaven, no make-up lot!!

This friend always points out pretty women, of ALL ages. I remember he said he was speechless when he first met his boyfriend's mother, as she was so gorgeous and elegant, and she must be in her seventies.

Anyway, I am so sorry for this sermon. Just wanted to say I think Sewell's rubbishy comments have more to do with him being a pillock than anything else.

And to Joanofarchitrave, I for one only read this part of mumsnet. I dipped into the rest at an earlier stage, but this is the only part I liked and was filled with intelligent people who make me think hard about stuff.

I knew this was Brian Sewell just from the thread title. David Sexton in the ES is just as bad. Narrow, male gaze whatever the sexuality.

I agree his critique is harsh but he is probably doing it to gain publicity? Most people are aware she looks like a typical woman of her age. Beauty is subjective through, as is art. Freedom of speech applies here I think although, I find his comments saddening.

What a bizarre review. Her body looks fine and normal to me, and her face has plenty of warmth and character.

Oh no, my elbows come below my belly button! I'd better not have any portraits painted of me.
I think Brian Sewell's comments are horrible. They appear in large part to be about the subject, rather than the painting. I fail to see anything revolting about a painting of a healthy human body & think he has been extremely unkind.

Just wanted to add that I like the picture. I've always thought Brian Sewell was verging on a parody of an art critic, so not really meant to be taken seriously. I'm not even sure he takes himself that seriously.

How about if he'd used similar adjectives about a black person ... ooh look at the ridiculous, extended lips, the pudginess of the nose ... I wonder if his review would have even made it into the paper. I'm not arguing for the right to make hideously racist, spiteful remarks, more for the dignity extended to black people to be further extended to females, of all ages. It seems like people have forgotten that females bleed too.

Well said!

(But, this is a really old thread so don't be upset if people don't reply - it's just been a long gap since the topic was posted, sorry!)

Vickiw1
"How about if he'd used similar adjectives about a black person ... ooh look at the ridiculous, extended lips, the pudginess of the nose ... I wonder if his review would have even made it into the paper. I'm not arguing for the right to make hideously racist, spiteful remarks, more for the dignity extended to black people to be further extended to females, of all ages. It seems like people have forgotten that females bleed too. "

Your comparison is flawed. Having "extended lips" is an intrinsic facial feature for many black people. Being fat is not an intrinsic feature of caucasian females.

Ouch. No, really not, uppercut. 'Extended lips' implies that the default state of lips is to be caucasian-style, and that what looks perfectly normal is in fact an 'extended' version. It's positing a discriminatory norm, just as this is.

Normal sort of words to use about older women aren't they? You see similar on mumsnet every day......

You're very dry, seeker, but good point.

Old(er) people a more prone to fat because a reduction in their basal metabolic rate; I'm getting fat. It is not exclusive to women.

LRDtheFeministDragon
"Ouch. No, really not, uppercut. 'Extended lips' implies that the default state of lips is to be caucasian-style, and that what looks perfectly normal is in fact an 'extended' version. It's positing a discriminatory norm, just as this is. "

Fat people are primarily fat due to their own choices, even regardless of age, myself included. Discriminating against people who make poor choices is perfectly acceptable. If someone f's up, they should be told so, because it's their decision to f' up. This is wholly unlike the facial features you are born with; the comparison is invalid.

I don't think discriminating against people who make poor choices is acceptable. I think that's pretty foul.

But also, I objected to you saying 'extended' lips were an 'intrinsic' feature of black people, because that assumes that 'normal' lips are caucasian. It's positing a racist norm. I'm not denying that there is a difference between having lips of a particular shape, which you were born with, and being fat, so I'm not sure why you think I am.

"Discriminating against people who make poor choices is perfectly acceptable"

Wow. Let me just think about that for a while!

LRDtheFeministDragon
"But also, I objected to you saying 'extended' lips were an 'intrinsic' feature of black people, because that assumes that 'normal' lips are caucasian. It's positing a racist norm."

Uppercut
"Having "extended lips" is an intrinsic facial feature for many black people"

Blond hair is an instrinsic feature of many caucasians, high melanine concentrations are an instrinsic feature for many people on the Indian subcontinent, having very straight black hair hair is an instrinsic feature of many Asian people. To suggest that making these truthful statements about ethnic groups is to automatically 'posit a racist norm' is a load of b...

Talking about racial characteristcs does not make someone a racist, no matter how hard you want that to be the case. It gets very tedious listening to people's anally retentive social hang-ups being repackaged into someone else's 'thought crime'.

LRDtheFeministDragon
"I don't think discriminating against people who make poor choices is acceptable. I think that's pretty foul."

If you want to give sympathy and understanding to a smackhead breaking into your home in the middle of the night that's up to you. Good luck with that. On the other hand I'll intend to discriminate against him with the nearest heavy blunt object.

That extreme example of the practice of your attitude aside... fat people, and one's getting fat like me, impose a huge healthcare social cost just as junkies impose and health and criminal social cost. Go and look up the (projected) figures if you want. I accept criticism/discrimination for my health decisions because I'm not a member of the victim culture that insists its always someone else's fault.

It's not, it's my choice.

And if someone's pissed off that my choice is imposing a unfair social burden on them and want some healthcare-based discrimination imposed to rectify the balance, then that's fair enough.

I don't think you've understood my post, or read it properly.

'Extended' means 'made bigger than'. It is inherently a term of comparison to a presumed norm. Yes?

'Blonde', OTOH, is not.

So you are not comparing similar things.

To say black people have 'extended' lips is to assume that normal-size lips are caucasian-style lips that protrude less far. But there is no reason to assume caucasians are 'normal' and black people are 'abnormal'. That's racism.

As to the other point, I have no idea what you're on about. Smackheads?! This is about a picture of a woman and whether or not her being fatter than a slender young model bothers us. What does you being prone to violence matter? If you did assault someone, even in your own home, you risk being put in prison. Better to lock the door.

LRDtheFeministDragon
"What does you being prone to violence matter? If you did assault someone, even in your own home, you risk being put in prison. Better to lock the door. "

I'm not prone to being a victim. And lock doors, ah, the thing that prevents 100% of burgularies. Lol. Rather be in front of a jury of 12 than on a coroner's table. As long as you don't hit them from behind or smack them with a hammer 20 times you should be fine.

And again, B. S. is not commenting on something that is unique to women. There is nothing wrong with a 'presumed norm' that doesn't involve being unhealthly fat through your own choices, if that is B. S.'s opinion of this women. Whether his point is medically valid or not is an issue which I'm not qualified to comment upon.

I have no clue about what you're talking about.

What does this have to do with the thread, or anything else?

'prone to being a victim' is obviously nonsense. What, do you fondly imagine yourself controlling other people's actions perfectly all the time?

I never said BS was commenting on something unique to women, did I?

There is something wrong with the presumed norm about 'extended lips', because it is racist. I have explained quite clearly why this is so. It's a pity you can't bring yourself to apologise, isn't it?