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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Is feminism all about man hating?

460 replies

PedanticPanda · 06/07/2012 11:14

When feminism is brought up around my DP and my other friends they all say the same thing,

I agree with feminists who want equal rights for men and women, but not feminists who hate men and want women to be treated better than men.

Do these feminists actually exist? I assumed that feminism was all about equal rights etc, I thought all the man hating was a stereotype but wasn't actually true, but, most people I know seem to think this is the idea of the majority and it's the minority of feminists who want equal rights.

OP posts:
yellowraincoat · 06/07/2012 20:54

Nice to see that peace and quiet round here lasted a good 4 or 5 days.

Whatmeworry · 06/07/2012 20:55

Also - I change my name at least once a year, as do many other posters. But I don't see you mentioning that

I didn't realise you were all at it, makes sense after last weeks' revelations - I guess that makes you all twice (or more) the person I am.....

Beachcomber · 06/07/2012 20:57

Right. MrGin.

Like I said, I'm not MNHQ - it seems obvious to me that quoting a deleted thread and being ambiguous about which poster one is quoting, is not cricket to put it mildly.

solidgoldbrass · 06/07/2012 20:59

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HesterBurnitall · 06/07/2012 21:00

Yellow, sadly I don't see the dust settling for a while. There was no real resolution and it's left a bad taste for some.

DowagersHump · 06/07/2012 21:00

Whatmeworry :)

KRITIQ · 06/07/2012 21:01

Um, if I might interrupt the bunfight to continue some of the discussion . . .

Now I gotcha Tei Tetua. You're saying that because Stoltenberg identified as a gay man, his support for feminism and criticism of masculinity wouldn't be seen as "trying for cookies" from women, particularly feminists. He would have no self-interest, so could be seen as more objective in his views. I'd never thought about it that way, but perhaps you are right - that is at least that some feminists may be less cynical about his work than they might if he were straight or bisexual.

Not meaning to turn this thread into a discussion of his writings on masculinity (although that would be nicer than an argument, but hey ho,) Stoltenberg refers only infrequently to his identity as a gay man and seems to challenge the infused-with-misogyny model of masculinity with at least some features that can be found in the behaviour and attitudes of gay and bi men as well as straight men.

In that sense, he's pointing out that male privilege isn't just predicated on gaining/maintaining control over women for one's own sexual pleasure. For example, there are some gay male fashion designers who through their words and behaviour show that they have little regard for women as a class, gain considerably from their privileged position vis a vis women, but would have no interest in sexual access to women.

Having said that, if the reader of his work is a straight man who is heterosexist, and he realises the author is a gay man, that may give him the "excuse" to dismiss everything he say with a, "what would a gay man know about masculinity," jibe.

On your other point, I think probably most "heroes" we think of haven't been perfect. Gandhi was perhaps a misogynist, but early women's rights activist Elizabeth Cady Stanton was overtly racist. It's difficult to balance up the noble deeds someone performed in one sphere knowing that in other areas, they were far, far from noble.

HesterBurnitall · 06/07/2012 21:01

I was following all the threads, sgb. It was an interwebz Facebook fall-out with dress ups on. 'twas shit, really.

KRITIQ · 06/07/2012 21:01

Oh, and Tei Tetua, surely I have nothing to fear from a former cannibal, right? :)

yellowraincoat · 06/07/2012 21:04

Yeah, no shit Hester.

It seems that some posters have no interest in actually discussing feminism and only pop up to have pops at people.

It's boring. Seriously.

Beachcomber · 06/07/2012 21:06

YRC, would you sit on your hands after the goading we have seen here? If it were you I mean? I hate scapegoating that says 'oh, but I didn't mean you'. It is as destructive, as it is predictable.

I really wanted to step away from this section and give a bit of space to less regular posters.

It is sort of hard to keep one's peace on this sort of thing though. I'm sorry for participating in the derail. Really I am.

ecclesvet · 06/07/2012 21:06

I don't think feminism is all about man-hating, of course not. But I do think some feminists put too much stock into a 'gender wars' narrative that doesn't help anyone.

yellowraincoat · 06/07/2012 21:08

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Beachcomber · 06/07/2012 21:10

SGB, I respect you and I like you.

We don't always agree, and that is fine (I hope, it certainly is with me). I'm not sure it started where you say it did. I think there is more to this than meets the eye.

ThePan · 06/07/2012 21:11

yellow I think I need to cut n' paste that post, for my own and other's benefit.Smile

yellowraincoat · 06/07/2012 21:13

Yes there is more to it that meets the eye. Mostly weird FB groups that, as far as I can see, none of the posters who've been maintaining peace and quiet and thoughtful discussion here for the entire week have been privy to those.

We have about 200000 new sections; why one of those isn't just "have a massive go at people and bring up millions of shit about previous threads and go on and on and on" section, I don't know.

KRITIQ · 06/07/2012 21:13

Guess TeiTetua's gone to the pub and left me in the middle of the brawl here. Sad

Beachcomber · 06/07/2012 21:15

Oh well, that's me told YRC.

Contrary to what you may think, neither do I.

I'm in it for the feminist analysis, the female solidarity, the laughs, the fantastic links, the exploration.

I'm not in it for the character assassinations.

yellowraincoat · 06/07/2012 21:17

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HesterBurnitall · 06/07/2012 21:18

You were pretty active and vocal in those threads, YR. Having an opinion about this kind of thing isn't juvenile.

Kritiq I think one of the main differences between Gandhi and Elizabeth Cady Stanton is that just about everyone has heard of Gandhi, and think they know who he was. It's going to be more of an eyeopener. I also think that culturally we've made greater steps to examine and redress racism in our history whereas sexism is largely written off as 'just the way it was'.

solidgoldbrass · 06/07/2012 21:19

Beachcomber: TO be fair I think there was probably a lot going on that not everyone knew about - I certainly didn't as the only fellow MNers I 'know' on Facebook are ones I've met in the flesh. But I have seen this sort of thing kick off in and around feminist groups (and all activist groups) before. Some people have some good insights and some radical ideas, they become a bit of a lightning-rod for discussion and then it gets to beall about them and they love it and they feed it and then it bites them on the arse.

OliviaLMumsnet · 06/07/2012 21:22

And I'm going to post this here too tbh.
Can we all try and I dunno, be nice, this evening please?
Thanks

HesterBurnitall · 06/07/2012 21:24

It kicks off in all sorts of groups and spaces, though, not just feminist ones.

yellowraincoat · 06/07/2012 21:27

Sure, Hester. I gave my opinion. Several times.

What's your point? I'd just like to use this section without seeing a fight every time I post.

Anyway let's try to get back to the original thread.

ThePan · 06/07/2012 21:33

Olivia - Thanks, try to smell them as a diversion from the gin cupboard...