Feminist theory section

[EclecticShock]

Its a bit quiet non existent. I know there's lots of posters here who have something to contribute to feminist theory. Any reason that its quiet? I love the way this chat area is working out but I also think feminist theory is important... Would be good to get a balance and make this an all round board. I'm not experienced in feminist theory, otherwise I would start a thread.

Bats

I think we have seen in the news recently how pursuit of wealth is not always a force for good. It isn't necessarily a good guide of someone's usefulness in society. It can be quite the opposite.

but the top 10% of tax payers, pay 40% of the total income tax take.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_in_the_United_Kingdom

you cannot demonise all top earners in the country just because of the credit crisis. i only make money by creating well paid jobs.

i am a capitalist feminist, not because capitalism is perfect, it is just less flawed than the other systems we have tried and rejected. of course other systems look fine on paper and are terrible in practice, which reminds me of that Gore Vidal quote:

"There is no human problem which could not be solved if people would simply do as I advise."

Yes, we top 10%s should be treated like Gods, invitations to No 10, emails sent by HMRC saying how very much they appreciate how hard we work, that without us the benefits claimants would be eating dry bread and living in tents etc but of course we get absolutely no thanks at all, just jealousy.

Capitalism rules pretty well.

I thought you were.
In the same way that whatever the recession, diamonds, fine art and ownership of estates and islands will remain an unaffected market.

Capitalism is like a naughty child - it pushes and pushes the boundaries of what is acceptable/it can get away with. Sometimes it gets caught with it's pants down, gets punished and behaves for a bit. The bad behaviour soon returns though.

Marx could read and write in five languages and choose to live without wealth, he then wrote by far our best critique of capital because he was..............jealous and there was me thinking it was because he had boils on his bum.

Would you like to see other women eating dry bread Xenia? If so you really are a lost cause aren't you?

Yes, we top 10%s should be treated like Gods, invitations to No 10, emails sent by HMRC saying how very much they appreciate how hard we work, that without us the benefits claimants would be eating dry bread and living in tents etc but of course we get absolutely no thanks at all, just jealousy.

The top 1% get all the Treated Like Gods bit, the other 9% just get hated :o

mini - but fewer women in capitalist countries eat dry bread.

Are you suggesting we don't have a global economy Tilly?

Capitalism actually creates the need for the welfare state, so yes in advanced north/west countries few women eat dry bread. Although we do have food banks popping up everywhere, benefits are being slashed because the surplus $50 trillion of capital floating around looking for investment (by 2020 it is estimated it will be $100 trill) will never find it's way into government hands and is unlikely to be invested on the ground creating jobs. It has been the case over the last 20 years or so that as companies suppressed wages and profits grew, we saw more financification with companies investing not in their core business but things like lending and the derivatives markets. This is a massive consolidation of class interests.

Are you suggesting we don't have a global economy Tilly? no but you only work in a sweatshop if it is better than the alternative. the wages etc. will increase as demand for the clothing rises. they will rise faster if westerrn shoppers choose fairtrade clothing. we are not powerless.

i agree about lending and derivatives. the UK nation underwriting banks who then gamble with our savings with a heads they win, tails we lose style....

that needs stopping.

There is more for the poor in capitalist states. Amazingly studies show most people would rather have £40k pa if everyone else has £20k than £60k if everyone else were on £200k. This is human nature.

If people like I am are messed around by the state we will simply stop bothering to work so hard to fund the poor or move elsewhere.

Of course I don't want women just eating dry bread but capitalism is the best system to ensure they have food to eat. In fact I'd be very much in favour of British women given up bread. Paleo diets work better. They would be a lot happier and healthier without any bread at all.

Mini, please can you explain further your point about lending and derivatives?

Altho she was bats too.

Tilly - As a capitalist feminist, what are your views on domestic labour and the people who do it?

Mini - the marxist stuff makes a lot of sense to me, you're making me think I've always been a bit wary of marxism because with the focus on class, it's too easy to sideline women's rights. Does marxist feminism address this problem? Also, can you recommend any not too hard resources on marxist feminism?

Xenia - we will simply stop bothering to work so hard to fund the poor
Is that really why you work so hard?

"Cleaning and childcare is just about as boring as it gets if you do it 24/7 and most people cannot bear it."

Childcare isn't boring (at least not if you've got an iPhone) but yes cleaning can be dull as shit.

But surely the truly capitalist thing would be for housewives to charge for their services. The lack of supply of willing women and the constant demand for it should result in some tidy earnings.

And seriously Xenia, what is with your obsession with intelligence and survival of the fittest baloney? Altruism is just as deeply embedded into our evolutionary psyche. Without altruism I doubt very much you would be here.

plenty - i like my cleaners. i dont look down on them. one is an eastern european lone parent (trained chemist) who wants her son to be educated here & go to oxbridge. the other lost her job in the recession and wanted to keep working & it was the best job she could get.

they both benefit from me paying them. i benefit from their work. i run a highly profitable small company so i am used to asking people to do things - but if i dont pay good people well & treat them respectfully, they will get a another job.

DP & i are from northern WC stock so we dont see a 'them & us', (but to complete the picture, i sound like a posh southerner).

So you don't look down on them but out of your sample of two, they both happen to be down on their luck. Who do you think cleaning jobs should be for? What do you think about women (or men) who do their own cleaning, like SAHPs or your cleaners?

Sorry for all the Q's, I'm interested in whether Xenia's views are typical of capitalist feminism or whether there are different views.

The people who end up making a living cleaning are those who cannot get more interesting jobs. N one looks down on them. I am sure most of us try to treat everyone with respect. Indeed I judge people based on how they treat those from whom they will gain little and it is a very good test. The person who sucks up only to his or her potential boss and treats the office junior badly tends not to be a good person.

Why it is surprising that a cleaner might be someone down on their luck? it's dull and low paid work so people who can;t do much else do it including housewives who didn't marry well enough to find a man who can afford to pay a cleaner.

I am sure all high paying working people of either gender are very grateful and treat well those who clean and perform other services for them,. For many of us there will be a vast number of different services done for us for which we pay including through work when we subcontract things out there too. If you aren't nice to those with whom you work then they go elsewhere.

Just because you take a view (which is the truth anyway) that just about anyone on the planet with arms and legs can clean does not mean you treat cleaners badly. Same with housewives - I don't spit in the face of them and shout across the street- get back to work - how dare you let down the sisterhood by pandering to a man even though of course it is true that they are damaging all women by their sexist life choices.

Electic, Companies like General Electric in the states, a massive corp, made a huge profit in several ways, wage suppression, de-skilling the workforce, employing more women on lower wages, cutting back on its USA workforce, outsourcing and instead of using the profit to invest in their core business, they set up GE capital bank. Basically they lent the money to working people. Over the last 30 years after Regan and Thatcher and Pinochet (& others) stamped on labour power, brought about a decline in unionised power and created a surplus army of labour (unemployed) they then further deregulated business and banking. In meant that ordinary working peoples wages have not increased in line with inflation (despite the fact that maggie was obsessed with inflation) inflation has continued a pace because of the huge hike in wages and land prices at the top. This meant workers had to borrow, mainly for housing, we do this because banks lend to developers and home owners. Another way in which the surplus absorption problem can be dealt with.

The derivatives market came about in response to the fact that we had a capital surplus absorption problem.( we still have) When you make money, you have to do something with it, reinvest. If you make money you continue.......the surplus gathers and sits side by side with unmet social need. The derivatives market is like betting that the price of something will go up rather than buying shares in that company/commodity.

Messy, some Marxist feminists called on women to be paid for all domestic labour in the 80's. I was quite young but I just remember it. My mother was all in favour, although she worked, women often do a double shift.

It would not have worked because at the time fewer men stayed home, it would have meant further embedding the notion that a women's place is in the home.

who do you think cleaning jobs should be for? No job is for any particular group. people apply. you pick the best of who applies and try to get the best from them.

it doesnt matter what the job is.

What do you think about women (or men) who do their own cleaning, like SAHPs or your cleaners? i dont think about people doing their cleaning or having a cleaner.

i dont think i belong to some member of non cleaning club and other people arent.

Cleaning and all forms of domestic and child labour should be socialised, not paid but everyone should do their fair share, whether that be as a couple, a family or a commune. IMO

But S and D cannot do part of my job & they need me to work to pay them. hows that going to work?

do i do my job and part of theirs? do i still pay them?

DP is a HT. should he stop turning around a failing school to clean the bathroom?

i see more social good in us both doing our jobs (his useful, mine high earning) and spreading the money about to others.

create jobs. you know...what we really need now.