Feminist theory section

[EclecticShock]

Its a bit quiet non existent. I know there's lots of posters here who have something to contribute to feminist theory. Any reason that its quiet? I love the way this chat area is working out but I also think feminist theory is important... Would be good to get a balance and make this an all round board. I'm not experienced in feminist theory, otherwise I would start a thread.

Yes but the personal is political is it not? My politics are very personal. No off-the-shelf ideology for me thank you very much. I have no idea what problems you are referring to, or other threads, apart from the regular porn debates that usually end up in a slightly disturbing stand-off.

I understand what you mean, I think the Politics section could also do with a little more analysis and a lot less opinionated shouting.

Perhaps the term 'theory' should be replaced with 'analysis'. Theory seems disconnected but analysis is personal yet intelligent?

"I think the Politics section could also do with a little more analysis and a lot less opinionated shouting"

three cheers for that, fedup

Analysis in Politics would be like using common sense in Relationships. End of Board :o

I think the truth is there are some major schisms between the various schools of Feminism, and the acrimony between them goes back many decades and does get reflected on MN.

To be honest, whatmeworry, I'm not even sure its that. I've seen similar spats in pretty much all activist groups I've been involved in, certainly not limited to feminism/women's groups.

I think its just par for the course with issues where people are so passionately involved, you then get personality clashes & it all goes pearshaped. Being on the web makes it even harder for others to knock heads together & say 'sod it, lets just go to the pub' before it all goes really bad

I've seen similar spats in pretty much all activist groups I've been involved in, certainly not limited to feminism/women's groups.

Oh I agree - I think Life of Brian lampooned it all very well :)

Its just that some of these Feminist inter-group spats are decades old and still going strong, which is a pity.

Even just glancing at this thread makes me remember why lots of groups come unstuck as they end up talking about the group or who is in it or what they will talk about rather than talking about anything stubstantial and then acting on it.

A little self-reflection never did anyone any harm, Xenia .

I think mumsnet is a unique environment for discussing feminist issues - it's where feminist theory is put to practice - we are discussing real life, not what we think we ought to believe.

Many of my principles completely changed after having children as my theories were put to practice.

I don't think this happens to men (as much) and I don't think it happens to women who don't have children so this is indeed a very important place to thrash things out.

Many of my principles completely changed after having children as my theories were put to practice

Agree hugely - I found the Feminism of my university days has been massively moderated by the experience of just living, and having children - especially sons.

People's principels only change if they were feminists before and then decide to kow tow to a man and give up work and live off male earnings. They are the women we need to change and ensure they hand the mop to their other half and get out there and earn £3m a year.

Are people above saying they became more or less feminist after having chidlren? Are they saying they are doing much less childcare and cleaning after babies than they had expected that they would and their other half more? I hope so. Or have they found a huge desire to do unpaid dull stuff after a baby and no desire to do intellectually challenging work and make a fortune any more?

People's principels only change if they were feminists before and then decide to kow tow to a man and give up work and live off male earnings

I disagree, as:

(i) I have always more than earned my keep, yet my views changed anyway
(ii) IME its children - and experience that says life is 50 shades of grey, not black and white - that changes views/

I don't want to earn £3 mil a year so I must be a terrible feminist, oh well. Does wanting to create a fairer society and ensuring that women in Sub-Saharan Africa get decent medical treatment,or worrying about the life chances of working class women here in this country and single mothers, does that count?

Xenia I am in awe of your determination to extinguish the concept of staying at home to look after children, but the reality is that many women and men choose to do this and don't see it as a cop-out.

The feminist debate nowadays is that most women are forced to work even when they would prefer to stay at home and look after their babies.

No one on in the UK is roced to work as we have a welfare state. If you choose to work rather than rely on state benefits then you are choosing to be apart from your child but no one is forcing you. Indeed people like I am are obliged to keep you in idleness for the entirety of your life if you choose to force that on me, the humble tax payer on whom so many of those who do not work leech.

If you earn £3m a year you can do so much good in sub saharan Africa so much more than your average UK housewife does for Africa.

It's a con if someone say to you it's wonderful to be at home serving male needs and wiping babies' bottoms. These housewife types have really been hynotised in a sense by a kind of stay at home cult into thinking they are doing God's work by being servile to a man.

It's dull and all women and men at all stages of world history and in all countries have always sought to get others to do a lot of it as soon as they can afford that as it's so boring and a waste of female talents.

fedup The feminist debate nowadays is that most women are forced to work even when they would prefer to stay at home and look after their babies

Really? as i a feminist, is care about people being able to look after their DCs not women only. where is the equality otherwise?

surely as feminists we want men to care for children as much as women?

It's a con if someone say to you it's wonderful to be at home serving male needs and wiping babies' bottoms. These housewife types have really been hynotised in a sense by a kind of stay at home cult into thinking they are doing God's work by being servile to a man.

And then the whole "natural" narrative seduces women into even more labour intensive babycare.

It's dull and all women and men at all stages of world history and in all countries have always sought to get others to do a lot of it as soon as they can afford that as it's so boring and a waste of female talents

Stop derailing - that's the ASSK thread :)

But it interesting how the whole mother-intensive childcare trops has increased since the 1970's.

The humble tax payer, now you and I are worried about the same thing, except I am worried about EVERY tax payer, that's the proles, the ones who pay taxes. The capitalist class who use every loophole to avoid taxes, now that is really worth talking about.

Lets do some thinking, so how many nannies does one household need, how many housekeepers? One household, one nanny maybe. Are you going to pay her subsistence wages? the wages required to live on? perhaps but probably not. What will she earn, as much as you? How much would she need to earn in order to pay for her own childcare? How much surplus value have you created from employing her so that you can earn? Will you pay her more than you earn? No of course not. How much surplus to her subsistence has she earnt for you? Can she afford to pay for childcare and domestic work or must she undertake a double shift. The double bind that socialists talk about in relation to women's work. If she needs to outsource her domestic labour, who will do it, who will pay for it?

At the moment the state pays for it through tax credits and tax allowances, housing benefit etc because employers do not pay enough. Yep that's you and me, we pay for it with our taxes. Got a solution to it Xenia?

You see Xenia, the lot of the working class woman is very different to her middle class counterpart. She also has far fewer choices and opportunities and faces considerable discrimination on top of the oppression that women of all classes are subject to.

I think there needed to be a separate space for posters to discuss feminist issues and ideas when they are very new to feminism. But I think a theory board does not make sense and that is why there are so few posts there.

Yes posters like me have discussed feminist theory, but this is hardly ever divorced from personal stuff. Posters talk about personal stuff and theory in tandem. I can only think of 1 or 2 threads in FWR that I have posted in that have only been about feminist theory and they have always been when people have been asking questions. So hardly surprising it is so quiet.

But separating it means that I now feel I can't refer to feminist theory when talking about personal stuff on this board. I suspect the division is putting a lot of regular posters off.

I don't see that there's any reason not to post feminist theory on the other parts of FWR. I think the idea is that not everyone outside feminist theory is going to be read up on stuff so they might come at things from a more personal angle.

Of course theory can be posted in the chat area but it might get lots of questions and derailments. I thought people wanted to discuss theory where they could get to the nitty gritty without explaining the basics... Which is why I believe the theory section was created.

I think change is often uncomfortable, but this board will be what you want it to be. I think I'll be a lurker here, because I know little feminist theory, certainly not enough to have an opinion on it yet.
If you see everything in your life through a feminist lens, then this is possibly the perfect place to discuss how the theory impacts on reality on a daily basis and give examples through discussion and reference.

To Mini, it's a sexual politica point. Get those working class women into good high paid jobs. Let the men struggle. It is a gender politics issue, not a left/right politics issue. Some working class women do wonderfully well either at getting themselves through A levels and beyond or through setting up their own businesses but they will never get anywhere if they are just the power behind some male throne rather than the power itself.

The fact there will always be some low IQ useless people who cannot get better work wiping the babies' bottoms and doing the housework does not mean women need to choose to be that person.

Why would you want someone with a low IQ looking after your children? If you exploit them for cheap labour they can't be useless.

Have you been over to the SN board and put your views to some of the parents there? They would love to discuss IQ and usefulness with you.

How very strange

Xenia, I know money sometimes equates power but there are another admirable goals for both men and women?

Yes, I agree, IQ is generally a genetic or physical trait, not always due to hard work and enviroment, so it's quite discrimatory to say people with low iq are useless... In fact it's offensive, to me anyway.