I'm going to be brave and start a thread to discuss why we think that some false rape allegations are made

[ChickensHaveNoLips]

And has there been any research in to why? Because I don't buy that there are cackling women plotting and planning to ruin some man's life up and down the country for fun. I suspect that when it does happen, it says a hell of a lot about how disempowered women feel. I find it hard to articulate, but I think that if you are reduced to a sexual commodity, and you are constantly told that your attractiveness to men is your only value, then it might seem that you have very few weapons to strike back with. I'd wonder in what circumstances those claims are made, and what leads up to them.

I really hope that no one reads this and thinks for ONE SECOND that I am dismissing the fact that far more women are raped than make false accusations, and that far more rapists walk free than men are falsely accused. But the 'women lie about rape' gets thrown up a lot, and it causes doubt in general. Maybe if we could work out the how's and why's of false allegations, it would hold less power in a jurors mind.

It's all very well teaching girls about bodily integrity but that still keeps the onus on them which is what we're trying to get away from surely ?

Boys need to be educated and this needs to be comprehensive and deliberately targeted. Only men can rape so it's even more important that they understand from a young age exactly what rape is and what their responsibilties are.

Surely the most important thing to do is to ensure that the next generation of men see rape for what it is and that we prevent it from happening in the first place.

True Blistory. I suppose what I should say is that there should be a culture generally that women's bodies are not up for grabs and that they deserve respect.

This makes for interesting reading on changing how rape and sexual assault can be addressed

www.awc.org.nz/userfiles/16_1209513039.pdf

This makes for interesting reading on changing how rape and sexual assault can be addressed

www.awc.org.nz/userfiles/16_1209513039.pdf

I have a son and I will try my best to make sure he respects women and understands rape in every aspect from forceful to sleeping with some who's very drunk/drugged.

I can't change every one but I can make sure my son knows.

Sorry, if you don't have the time to click on the link basically what it says it that all current methods of rape prevention do is reinforce the notion that women can prevent rape. That the onus is on her to say no, that even giving consent, she is indicating that she is gving up power to the man.

Campaigns to keep safe and no means no simply reinforce this power dynamic and the cycle repeats with each generation

However we educate our children, there will always be men out there who think that they have rights over women's bodies. So I do believe strongly that educating our daughters about their rights to say no, and also, sadly, how to stay as safe as possible, is still part of rape education. It would be a lovely world if a woman could get into a state where she can't look after herself and not be in danger, but we don't live in that world, so part of reducing rape is about teaching women how to stay as safe as possible and how to be assertive. That isn't about putting blame on women, it's about saying that there are bad people out there who will try and take advantage. So in this way some women can prevent putting themselves into a situation where they are raped. Of course, it won't stop all rapes, but surely being able to stop some is a good thing? If someone has lots of security on their house they dont' think it's their fault if they're burgled do they? So why have we got into a situation where someone who does whatever they can to stay safe and is still raped feels they are at fault if they are raped?

Unfortunately the culture change that needs to happen for women not to e seen as 'up for grabs' seems to be going the other way - I've been going out to pubs and clubs for about 25 years now, and I've definitely noticed an increase on the sexual harassment/groping front. I put quite a lot of blame on the media and music videos for this, those that feature semi-naked women being available for whichever rap star is the central feature. So we have parents telling their male children that they should respect females, but the media is portraying women as being there for the sexual gratification of women.

I don't even know where to start to try and fix things.

I have no idea where to start but I will make sure no woman or man is made to feel like I did due to my son.

I agree Blistory that advising women not to get into minicabs, not to allow their friends to walk home drunk etc is way way off the mark, partly because it focuses on stranger rape and partly because, as you say it puts the onus on the woman to prevent rape. That said, I do think it is worthwhile to empower women with a sense of their own autonomy and their right to bodily security. The reason I think that is because rape so often happens in situations where men have slowly pushed a woman's boundaries, either through long term abuse or constant nagging, or through making her feel she owes him something. We need to remove the idea that women should be polite, and put up with harassment, groping and inappropriate comments. Of course that needs to be targeted both at men and women. It just shocks me how many women seem to think a man shouting at a woman in the street is "just being nice" and that being groped in a pub is "just one of those things." As long as women don't even stand up for their own autonomy in small, everyday ways, how will the culture ever change? I of course think that a huge amount of education and legislation should be targeted at men, but as long as women still think they have no right to stand up for themselves that education isn't going to do much IMO.

Glad you started this thread OP - it is interesting, thought provoking and informative.

Someone up the thread (SGB) suggested that young people who have been abused maybe accuse an innocent person of rape/abuse because 's/he doesn't want to believe that a particular individual s/he had previously loved and trusted would do such a thing and therefore names someone else'

In my experience (and although I guess I am talking about childhood abuse rather then rape it in its 'own right') I know that this happens. I know that it happens as it has happened to me (and I am female) and several colleagues in the same field.

It is a horrible situation all round (police, suspension etc.) especially when you KNOW that these poor young adults would have undoubtedly suffered horrific abuse/rape - as a young child.

Well said, Cailin. It's a huge change in social attitudes that's needed. I have no bloody clue how you tackle it. It's no good telling women that they are not property, when they are surrounded by images and other media which strongly implies they are.

I know it might sound extreme but I think it has to start right from when they're tiny. It really raises my hackles when I see a toddler being grabbed and picked up, wriggling and annoyed, by someone for a kiss. I always ask my DS if I can have a kiss, sometimes he says no sometimes he says yes. I notice a lot of my friends are similar, they're quite respectful in how they approach their own and other children. My family on the other hand have no respect, and all through my childhood I was sent very mixed messages about physical autonomy. I wasn't really allowed to touch my parents but my own autonomy was completely denied - to the extent that I was ordered against my will to let a male family friend bathe me which resulted in the first in many incidents of abuse.

All children should be taught right from the start that if you touch someone, you need their clear permission and if someone touches you, they need your clear permission. And that message should be reinforced by schools throughout childhood. Too often girls are expected to put up with aggressive or overly touchy feely behaviour from boys on the assumption that the boys are "just playing" or the girls are "winding them up." The same goes for inappropriate comments - schools, secondary schools in particular, should come down very hard on any intimidating, or sexually inappropriate behaviour. Instead, it seems that many schools expect girls to just put up with it, because it's "normal" teenage behaviour. Not acceptable, because all it does is teach girls that in order to be liked, and in order not to seem like a pain in the ass they have to allow their boundaries to be breached, constantly, by men.

Also men need to learn that if a woman says no to something, or doesn't participate enthusiastically with it, then that is a serious thing and that if they continue regardless then that could have very serious consequences. I know the ex who raped me just saw my refusal to have sex as an inconvenience so when I was asleep he went ahead and did it anyway - my saying no meant nothing to him and it didn't occur to him that what he was doing was actually a crime. He seemed baffled as to why I was upset. This wasn't some neanderthal beer swilling lout, this was a well-educated, seemingly very sensitive new age man who could cook and who wanted children. He just had no concept of the fact that taking my clothes and off and penetrating me while I was still asleep was rape - to him it was just a way of getting around the fact that I had said no earlier. I think he assumed I would wake up and be fine with it. His attitude was just totally unbelievable.

Wow, Cailin. That is....fuck. Head wrecking. That someone would honestly not see the wrong in what they are doing, and could not empathise with you. So, it's quite possible that due to these ambiguous social messages about women's autonomy, there are men who rape but don't think of themselves as rapists? I always assumed that they knew they were committing a crime but didn't care. The thought that they might have actually decided it doesn't even count as wrong is really...fuck. Do you think this also counts towards the low conviction rates? Not only is the jury predisposed to think 'but some women lie', but the man in the dock genuinely believes they haven't committed an offence? No wonder women feel disbelieved. The whole thing is set up to pretend nothing has actually happened.

Dana I could have written the last comment of yours. It was a very similar experience that I went through.

Also agree with the thing about toddlers. I always ask my son before I give him a kiss etc. I don't agree with forcing them no matter their age.

I would imagine most rapists never acknowledge to others, nor to themselves, that a rapist is what they actually are

Reinforced by society of course, as detailed so comprehensively above

It's clear from a few threads that I've read on MN that a partner raping his wife/gf and then acting like he's done nothing wrong, to the extent where it's clear he actually believes he's done nothing wrong, isn't exactly rare. I think there are plenty of men out there who see sex as their right and who believe that any method they go about getting it, including just shagging their sleeping wife, is legit.

So we need to work less on telling our daughters to protect themselves, and more on telling our sons that sex is not a right. It's so hard to get that over, though, when popular culture suggests otherwise :(

I was actually thinking about this the other day. One of my favourite films of all time is 'Gone With The Wind'. I adore the whole saga. But when Rhett 'manfully' overpowers Scarlett and carries her to his bedroom (while pissed and threatening), that should be a disturbing image. But it's presented in a 'romantic' light. He's not a rapist, he's passionate. This is reinforced by Scarlett waking up the next morning with a smile on her face. Now, this is obviously not a, er, recent example, but it does rather wonderfully illustrate where the 'no means yes' crap comes from. Women are supposed to be flattered by men who can't control themselves

even more grapically captured by that "50 shades" shite, to quote a more recent but no less representative, example

Whatever we might say about 50 Shades, it is women who are reading the thing. I suppose that tells us that feminism has a long hard road to travel.

Or maybe the readers are all taking it as a list of horrors to learn from and avoid. I'm sure they aren't, but I don't imagine that many women really want to be on the low side of a sado-masochistic relationship either. Yet somehow it's irresistible to read about? There's something there for feminist shrinks to argue over.

I know, Tei, that's the scary part

I refuse to read that book due to what its about.

Is it conditioning, Tei? That we've been told so many times that the romantic dynamic is 'men/aggressive, women/victims' that it becomes habit? A bit Pavlovian, maybe. I have to confess to having read '50 Shades' and it is dire. The male character is a stalking, controlling, violent arsehole who we should feel sorry for and find incredibly attractive. He's Heathcliff but less well written.

Reading 50 Shades tells the world you are not a prude, though. I think the 'I'm so Wild and Sexy' thing is the new 'I'm Mad, Me!'
It's for attention, imo - not that I'm saying attention seeking is wrong at all, we all need some - and for a long time it works out ok.
But for a lot of women, it's inauthentic. That catches up in the end, probably in the form of weak boundaries.
So when the man who thinks he is owed sex - (because the hero always gets the girl) meets the woman with weak boundaries, whose self esteem is partly bound up with being wanted and being an uninhibited modern woman,you get these horrible cases that we see all the time on these boards.
'that wasn't rape' etc etc.