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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Women's tennis and equal pay

297 replies

messyisthenewtidy · 28/06/2012 14:15

Can I ask what everyone thinks re. the recent furore over women's equal prize money at Wimbledon?

Surely, the fairest solution would be to let women play 5 sets? Or am I missing something fundamental here?

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slug · 05/07/2012 10:10

LIVE sport is bloody expensive. To go to games requires time and money. Both of which are typically restricted in women's lives.

larrygrylls · 05/07/2012 10:17

Slug,

Not all live sport is expensive. Some is incredibly cheap. But if you want people to be paid millions, yes it is by necessity expensive. It is all about priorities. If you can afford wine, cinema and Sky TV, you can afford live sport. And, it only takes a few afternoons a year. Most women are not that restricted.

slug · 05/07/2012 12:05

I think, Larry, you completely fail to understand the restrictions that are placed, both overtly and covertly on women's lives. Apart from the negotiation that many women have to go through to ensure some time sans childcare or family responsibilities, and apart from the travel and time costs that women typically spend on their families because the blokes keep that sort of money for themselves sporting events are frequently not safe places for women.

On the surface it may appear to you, as a man, that women are welcome at sports events, but next time you go open your ears to the misogynistic comments that circle around. Listen to the sneers, the labeling of poor play as "playing like a girl" the 'jokes' about tits, the cameras lingering on attractive women in skimpy clothing and try to put yourself in a woman's skin. You probably won't hear as much of it as I routinely do because they are not directed at you, or you may not catch the underlying tone of threat that is ever present in women's lives.

Women really are that restricted. It's just subtle.

I'm flattered that you think I spend my household income on wine, cinema and Sky TV. I'm not that wealthy, nor would I ever knowingly put money into the hands of the Murdochs.

However, all of this is a smokescreen. Why should I have to attend sports events? The BBC takes my money in the form of a licence fee (and yes, I pay it, I'm the higher earner) yet put's women's sport behind the red button while putting men's on prime time. The BBC does not have the same commercial pressures as Sky and their like, so that particular part of your argument, of which you are so fond, is irrelevant.

You've not managed, in any way to address the original question on this thread i.e. why shouldn't women be paid the same prize money as men. All I hear is you insisting that women should perform like men because, ultimately, the male is the stand to which women should aspire

messyisthenewtidy · 05/07/2012 12:15

Actually Larry you did call me a Marxist!! And I hereby give Slug full permission to defend me! Wink to Slug.
It's a bit odd Larry that you are not opposed to the concept of unfair pay when its reason is market forces but you are when its reason is social forces. How bizarre.

And whilst I do enjoy being mansplained (who doesn't?!) it is quite possible that we as women might have an idea of the challenges facing girls and their relative lack of participation in sport what with us having had experience of girlhood ourselves.

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messyisthenewtidy · 05/07/2012 12:21

Great post Slug Smile

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messyisthenewtidy · 05/07/2012 12:42

Actually to add to your post Slug I think Geena Davis has a good point: with the complete lack of female protagonists in mainstream movies, boys are simply not brought up to watch women as central characters. I think this is a contributing factor.

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nemno · 05/07/2012 12:49

I attend about 30 live sports ( mostly men's, 2 or 3 mixed) events a year, loads of other women are there usually (but yes usually less than half). In my family it is the women who go most regularly. I love it, I don't feel in any way threatened or uneasy.

This thread is making me a bit unhappy. Watching sport is perhaps my favourite leisure activity and I honestly do prefer to watch men for what I think are valid reasons (stronger, faster) . I have no doubt women could and should play 5 sets at grand slams (and there is no good reason in athletics that women do 8 events in the heptathlon whilst men do decathlon). Equally I think Wimbledon is right to give equal prize money. But I don't want to feel bad about my own preference for watching men's sport.

larrygrylls · 05/07/2012 13:36

Messy,

I did call you a Marxist based on a specific comment you made on a post upthread, where you basically said that people should be paid according to effort and not ability. I think that is a fair call.

I find it amusing that this thread is about tennis, where women are grossly overpaid, rather than about any number of other sports where there truly is a lack of money for women.

What would you say if the top men pulled out and organised their own tour and left the women to organise theirs. Should they be allowed to do that? If not, why not? If that happened, the women's prize money would end up as about 1/3 of the men's.

messyisthenewtidy · 05/07/2012 14:08

Actually Larry that's a bit of a gross oversimplification of what Marxism is but whatever ....

Nemno, of course you shouldn't feel bad about preferring men's tennis, you're not begrudging women or running them down.

I'm the same as you in a way. I personally prefer women's tennis but I totally don't think men should be paid less.

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slug · 05/07/2012 15:24
messyisthenewtidy · 05/07/2012 16:32

Slug Grin that's pretty much the gist of it!

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larrygrylls · 05/07/2012 16:46

www.therichest.org/celebnetworth/category/athletes/tennis/

Yep, with Serena Williams and Maria Sharapova worth about $90mio+ (and more than Rafael Nadal) I just cannot see any incentive for girls to play tennis. Who would bother working for such tiny money?!

messyisthenewtidy · 05/07/2012 17:40

Exactly, the male tennis players are earning shitloads anyway so what's the problem with equal prize money?!

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kickassangel · 05/07/2012 18:24

I think this thread has broadened out beyond tennis and referenced several other sports, so to just focus on tennis now is a little disingenuous.

We are saying that tennis is one of the few examples where men and women can and do achieve comparable levels in both sporting achievements and money, but that women still don't get the same acknowledgement whether they are restricted in how much air time they get or how much they are able to play.

Other sports don't even manage this. From grass roots levels up to the big stars women are discouraged and disadvantaged. Yet ther is plenty of evidence that where women have the same opportunities they can achieve the same, they just don't get allowed to do this.

Fwiw, I actually don't get the argument about mixed sports. Rugby players, whether male or female can get hurt. If a woman has the physique to play in a mixed team she is no more likely to be hurt than the male player on the opposing side. So why aren't women allowed to make that choice. I've also heard people sound shocked cos rugby players might grab or touch each other, but they voice no shock that men grab each other. I long for the day when it doesn't matter whether someone is male or female, just good at their job.

kickassangel · 05/07/2012 18:26

And Larry, men did pull out of football, set up their own league and then ban women. I don't think that separate but equal is the way forward, but I'm not afraid of the outcome if women had to do things themselves, so long as there wasn't a man's group (like the FA) who then cut women out.

Whatmeworry · 05/07/2012 22:37

BTW, Rugby 7's is soon to be an Olympic sport and women's rugby globally is really taking off.

But until large numbers of women stop reading OK and Cosmo and watching Soaps, and start watching buying and women's sport the money will always lag men's sport.

messyisthenewtidy · 05/07/2012 22:45

Or maybe OK and Cosmo can become backers of women's sports and replace a few skinny fashion model pages with coverage of women's games.

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Whatmeworry · 05/07/2012 22:48

^^ We live in hope - question - Million dollar question is why are slebs seen as better woman's role models that sportswomen?

slug · 06/07/2012 12:10

Ahh, happy days, I remember playing women's rugby back in my yoof.. I also played another sport (not going to tell, it would out me) where mixed teams were the norm right up to senior level. That was because it was a minority sport so the mixed teams were a necessity.

grimbletart · 06/07/2012 12:16

I played mixed hockey many many years ago. It was vicious and great fun!

BTW on Today at Wimbledon last night John Inverdale, Lindsay Davenport and Tracy Austin had a brief discussion about 5 set tennis for women. There seemed to be agreement that even if scheduling at the moment made it impossible throughout the whole tournament it could at least be introduced at quarter, semi and final level. No one was suggesting the poor little girlies weren't up to it. I think it may gather a head of steam soon.

messyisthenewtidy · 06/07/2012 12:41

Grimbletart, they've obviously been following this thread Grin

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kickassangel · 06/07/2012 13:20

There's no reason why they couldn't do that for men and women. It could be interesting to see if it shook things up and brought any surprise results

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