Women's tennis and equal pay

[messyisthenewtidy]

Can I ask what everyone thinks re. the recent furore over women's equal prize money at Wimbledon?

Surely, the fairest solution would be to let women play 5 sets? Or am I missing something fundamental here?

"But we live in a country with a free market, and so morals have nothing to do with it - market forces do. Money in sport comes from people paying to watch. It's that simple."

I think you'll find it's NOT that simple and that morals certainly had something to do with it when women were not allowed to participate in sports, right from their exclusion from the Olympics for fear of seeing naked men to the Victorian attitudes that it was unladylike. Men's sport has had a huge helping hand but they'll be damned before they try to redress the balance.

What kind of depressing country do we live in that bows down to the God of market forces? FFS...

Grimble, I was that sports hating schoolgirl! Not for silly, sexist reasons but because I just hated the whole thing. Changing in public, showing my adolescent body in shit unbranded sports gear, and getting shouted at to run when my body wanted to lie down.

These days, I pay to go to the gym. I love it and look forward to it. I have often said that schools should offer girls body combat etc, which I bet many of them would love. Kicking and punching to loud music? Of course they would.

But that doesn't get us closer to success at team sports etc. Women work out to get fit, lose weight, and let off energy in a safe, non judgemental environment (v generally speaking).

Not for team glory.

Messy, of course its morally wrong to exclude women from sport.

But that was then, this is now. Women are free to play and watch as much competitive sport as they like. Mainly, they choose not to play and watch much, if any.

I'm not suggesting we shouldn't be trying to change this, especially for todays generation of schoolgirls. I'd love to see women's sport become bigger and more accessible.

But I don't think trying to manipulate a false 'equal pay' scenario is the way to do it.

Oh well, if your husband doesn't like it, then that's us told, isn't it?

"But I don't think trying to manipulate a false 'equal pay' scenario is the way to do it."

I do, it's a way of saying that women's tennis is worth it, which it most definitely is, and it will encourage young girls to see that they can have a sports future that is rewarded. Like many girls, I was never into sport because there didn't seem any point. Equal prize money is a way to change that. Ridiculous money is given to footballers who most definitely enjoy a gender privilege, but when it happens to women there's a backlash and people get their calculators out to prove women tennis players are making more per hour in a tournament!

You say "that was then, this is now" but we're still suffering from the inequality of the past so it would be the right thing to do to really get behind women's sports. Many organizations are starting to do this and it's having an effect already, especially in America.

Change is happening, but what upsets me is a lot of men's (and women's) attitudes to women's sport and to the equal pay debate on the internet. To describe something as shit, to ram it home to women that they'll never be as good as men no matter what they do is beyond pointless and is just plain nasty.

Oh get a grip BIWI! He's a sports fan, I'm not. So while I have no view on the relative merits of the men's and women's games, he does.

I referred to his opinion as 'a pearl'. Please, I beg of you, tell me you didn't think I meant that with no irony, and that you should all bow down to my husband??

(he's my DP anyway but same principle)

I think football is shit. Sorry.

Who should I apologise to for this? My DP is entitled to enjoy or not enjoy sports as he likes.

He isn't nasty, and he isn't trying to tell women anything.

But Morris - what your husband thinks of women's tennis has absolutely nothing to do with equality.

Messy, you're entitled to your opinion, and anything that promotes women us a Good Thing in my view.

But personally, I do not think that making silly prize money equally silly for men and for women will entice many girls into sport. How rich are the Williams sisters? Extremely rich. Their profiles are probably v positive in terms of getting girls interested, but the exact sums in their huge bank accounts are almost certainly less relevant as a promotional tool.

Look, I didn't expect anybody to think Woohoo let's all listen to Mr Zapp.

Really. I didn't.

But as I know nothing of sport and he knows loads, I did ask him what he thought.

"But Morris - what your husband thinks of women's tennis has absolutely nothing to do with equality."

It does you know.

If the viewing public thinks it's shit they won't watch. If they don't watch, the sport won't get money from advertisers or TV companies. If they don't get money, etc.

It is all down to Mr Zapp.

MorrisZapp: But that doesn't get us closer to success at team sports etc. Women work out to get fit, lose weight, and let off energy in a safe, non judgemental environment (v generally speaking). Not for team glory.

Tennis isn't a team sport, unless we are are talking Davis or Fed. Cup. So the team thing isn't relevant in that case.

Interestingly on the feminist board a lot of feminists feel the group, the team (in another phrase) is what feminism is all about. Being supportive, in it together etc., the best for women as a 'team'. So it's not a million miles away from a team attitude in sport.

But why do we need a safe, non judgemental environment? Part of the excitement of life is about challenges, takings risks and not giving a tinker's cuss about being judged. Why do women care so much about how they are judged? It comes back to that old thing about how we are perceived, what people (or more often men) think of us etc. We won't really make progress until more women don't give a damn how we are perceived. Because as long as you are being honest, upright and not giving anyone grief what matters is what you think of yourself. That's the lesson we should be teaching our daughters.

Can't argue with any of that grimbletart. I was brought up by a radfem mum though, and wore a badge saying 'girls are powerful' to school etc.

It didn't make me want to run around a field in shorts though.

I suppose it's leading a horse to water and hoping it drinks, to some extent.

I'm the horse.

Neigh Nay Morris

Depends on where you come from grimbletart. In my neck of the woods women and girls were simply expected to play sport in the same way boys are here. The hair/adolescent body/body shame/non-feminine slant that is so strong in the UK simply didn't exist, or at least wasn't emphasized. That's what you get growing up in the colonies The Govt ran a campaign for years that simply stated "Girls can do anything"

I remember back to when I was studying ergonomics, the science of designing to fit the human form. In most cases, at least at that point in the it was still the norm to design to the male body. This is still fairly common. Look, for example, at bicycle seats. The ones supplied with bikes are designed for the male pelvis. If you want one designed for a woman's pelvis you have to explicitly change it. Society is based around the male as the norm, female as the 'other' trope. Everything, our language, our laws, our culture reflect this idea. Men hold for themselves the position of being fully human and women, at best, have to either adapt themselves or accept their lesser status.

At this point, I'm sure, the steam will be coming out of the men's ears at the idea that somehow they hold themselves in a position of superiority. They will try and mansplain it's not that men are better, it's just that women simply can't compete .

That's it slug, I'm sick of men explaining what women are and women aren't, and sick of the idea that women have to prove themselves against the male norm to be worthy. It's just so tiring...

Goes back to what I was saying: until women don't give a damn about how we are perceived it will be like trying to walk with one foot nailed to the floor. And I really and honestly don't understand why women do give a damn...it must be so exhausting trying to live up to all those idiotic expectations about what you look like, what's appropriate and what people think. Maybe I was too lazy to bother to make the effort

The women's England football team are far, far more successful yet you won't see them on TV or feted in the press. As always, women are expected to be invisible and not challenge men."

How do you work this out? A quick Wikipedia shows quarter finals in 3 of the last 6 world cups and not qualifying for the other 3.
At the last world cup I remember many people saying the women's team had gotten further than the men's but the reality was they both got knocked out in the first knockout game after the group stage. Because the women's competition had less players this was the quarters.
Both teams were equally abysmal in their last world cup showings

SardineQueen and others.

I understand your fundamental ideal, but you're missing a trick.

Each individual woman is worthy of the prize laid before her, should she train hard, focus strongly and fend off the competition.

Women's tennis as a whole, whether you like it or not, is a product. The price or value of any product is determined by its demand, which has nothing at all to do with any feminist/non-feminist argument. Its just basic, yes basic economics.

Thanks for explaining it to us but I'd argue that the economics of supply and demand is greatly influenced by cultural factors.

and others?! Thanks very much.

Not missing a single trick here, thank you.

If you look at the history of women's football, women used to play to packed audiences, (in proper stadiums, not just the local parks) with people being turned away, until the FA banned them in 1922.

So it's relatively recent history that women aren't allowed to do sport.

Following your argument, Quimby, women & men do equally well/badly at national football level, but the women still don't get the covereage and money.

And yet, until they were banned, they were JUST as popular.

So that rather implies that the modern idea of women's sport not being as popular or good is just that - an idea (rather than afact) of modern times.

I wonder if mayorquimby could explain why, if women's football was so dire it used to attract crowds of 50,000 until it was banned in 1922.

Whether sport is seen as entertainment by the players or not, this is how the public see it and it's by selling tickets to the public and tv deals to entertain the public that the prize money is generated. The players aren't paid by the hour like waged staff. They are paid to entertain and this can be done as well over 3 sets as 5. I pay the same at the cinema for a 2 hr film as a 3 hr one and the 2 hr film may be more entertaining. I have seen the Williams sisters play in person and I can yell you they are amazing, thrilling players and I'd rather watch them than 2 men spending hours power serving at each other.

I'm just wondering two things this morning:

• first, are any of you posting on here prepared to stand up and say that you don't believe in equal rights for women? Because that would save an awful lot of time trying to argue with you

• second, have any of you actually watched any of the women's tennis that's being played at the moment? Some fabulous matches (grunting to one side), with skill, speed and ferocity that is amazing to watch.