What does this mean and does it mean I am not a true feminist?

[LurkingAndLearningForNow]

So I was Facebook-ing with a girlfriend earlier today and we got onto the topic of feminism. I was chatting about all the things I learned and how I'd decided to become involved in some protests later in the year.

She told me I was shocked, and 'it's one thing to believe in equality but don't pretend you're a REAL feminist like me.'

Understandably, I was upset and asked her why. She said I'm too pretty and girlie to be a feminist because I collect high heels and have an obsession with crafts, making my own skincare products, I have a Chihuahua and I take a lot of pride in the way I dress as I have a very feminine but unique style. I want to have a family and spend their early years as a SAHM until they go to school. I look up wedding dresses and rings sometimes.

Obviously the looks thing and what sort of dog I own are stupid reasons, but does getting Brazilian waxes, curling my hair and wearing heels mean I'm catering to the patriarchy?

This has me really bothered, so please be honest in your replies. If I have to stop these things, I will. She also basically told me I'm a superficial airhead so I couldn't possibly be a feminist. AKA she thinks I'm an armchair advocate.

I guess what I'm asking is it true if you watch some soppy romance telly (guilty pleasure) and the other things I mentioned mean I've been 'groomed' by society to act a certain way?

Sorry if this is a dumb question but it's been playing on my mind for hours.

well, with friends like that ... !

The kinds of beauty practices you mention are criticised by feminists (Sheila Jeffreys calls them harmful cultural practices) but this is an analysis of the political system that requires us to undertake these practices, not a criticism of women who do them. This is one of the myths about feminism that come up on here regularly: the idea that feminists are tyrants, telling other women what they can and can't do. If your friend thinks that's what feminism's about, she's got the wrong end of the stick.

Relevant reading: try Naomi Wolf's The Beauty Myth or (better) Sheila Jeffreys' Beauty and Misogyny (available to download here)

It isn't a dumb question at all. Please don't put yourself down lurking (I mean that kindly).

It is a very valid question and one that comes up in different shapes and forms a lot here.

I think what you are describing is what often gets referred to as 'performing femininity'. That means that women (and men) are socialized to perform certain types of behaviour and to conform to gender roles.

Some of what you describe is conforming to the feminine gender role (beauty practices for example). But conforming to what society demands of you, does not make you not a feminist, it makes you human.

We all conform to different extents and, for me, feminist analysis is not about judging individual women on how they react to socialization.

I think the person you refer to in your post has been very rude and unkind to you. If you think that society accords higher status to men than it does to women, and you disagree with that, and contest the mechanisms (especially male violence) that maintain the hierarchical status quo, then you are a feminist.

And I really must start that thread I have been meaning to for a while on the 'personal is political'. Am off out now but may do later.

I am a poor feminist (as in not very good) but I always work to the principle that being a feminist means having the choice to do those things if you want to, not having to be dictated to by other women (as opposed to men) how you should live your life.
I don't see feminism as being about women replacing men in who gets to tell you what to do - I see it as you heing able to do what suits you, regardless - being free to make those choices without being oppressed for them.

But then, as I said, I don't know much about it. That's just my feelings about it.

Agree with Prolesworth - your friend has got it all wrong. Feminism should be about allowing women to make choices - that includes the choice to wear make-up (or not), to bake cupcakes (or not), getting Brazilian waxes (or not) etc etc. As Naomi Wolf writes in the Beauty Myth 'we deserve lipstick - if we want it - and free speech'.

I'm a feminist and I wear make-up, have long curly hair, enjoy baking, get waxes, always wear nail varnish, live with a man, and invest a lot of time in how I look. I don't think it's your friend's place to decide for you what you are or are not. There are choices that other women make that I really loathe and secretly judge, but I try to keep those to myself!

'If you think that society accords higher status to men than it does to women, and you disagree with that, and contest the mechanisms (especially male violence) that maintain the hierarchical status quo, then you are a feminist

That's my favourite definition of 'what is a feminist' ever

Your friend sounds a bit bossy and prescriptive

Like proles said, some of those "feminine" things you do are criticised because it could be said too many of us (the "us" being society in general) do them unthinkingly without realising the wider picture of what they represent (catering to patriarchy, or in more personal terms to me anyway, manpleasing )

I do some of those "feminine" things too. My own personal line in the sand is around anything that supports the porn or sex-trade industry. For me, I shy away from "practices" that I believe originate from that (such as the fashion for being pube-less). Many women will argue that point though.

I use nail varnish, I colour my hair, for example. I support a woman's choice to be a SAHM whilst not doing it myself because I value my independence (and am very cynical about relationships). I tend to not do the things that will harm me physically eg. high heels harm your back, give you bunions and shorten your achilles tendon but I don't denigrate other women who wear them.

What I am a firm believer in is examining why we do what we do and applying it's effects to the way that women (as a whole gender) are perceived by society.

Tell your friend to keep her beak out of your business.

Thank you ladies, I'm going to see if I can borrow 'Beauty and Misogyny' from the library as for once they actually HAVE feminist books (man does that piss me off)

Well making skincare and doing crafts are more hobbies, but I guess to an extent I do put a lot of effort into my looks (hair in prticular..Mum always said a woman's hair is her crowning glory so I actually obsess unhealthily over it - part of my OCD- Clothes I enjoy but I'm starting to wonder if my obsession with makeup and heels is because my self confidence is so low.

I going to pick up on one particular thing here: 'and have an obsession with crafts, making my own skincare products' (okay, kind of two) I hate hate hate the way being into crafts is seen as 'girlie' and therefore 'bad' or no feminist. IMO a)boys should be equally encouraged in crafts if they want to do them and b) as crafting is a productivem creative thing to do I think it's pretty unfeminist to regard it as not worthwhile just because it's become a 'female' activity. I always point out to these people that most of the men in my family knew how to knit and sailors did a lot of knitting and sewing.

I wish I could do crafty stuff, but I am shit at it

I have also been called a "crazy radical feminist" on here. Go figure

Oh and I will have a chat to my mate. She is a good person, just as misguided as I was about feminism. She WANTS to do the right thing, so I'd rather educate her than condemn her.

She sure has confused me though.

AnyFucker - You're hardly crazy, in fact I hope to be like you when I'm older! You're so much braver than I

AF - you? A crazy radfem? really? Wouldn't have you pegged for that one but then I don't spend too much time on the feminist boards

I think AnyFucker is secretly a supergero (sexist industry, I know but hear me out.)

You ALWAYS know when a man isn't quite right. You make me see the red flags I never would have seen before, and it's already improving my relationship with DP.

Sorry, I'm sure it's a typo but living in Australia now, supergero just had me thinking of an octogenarian with special powers
You're not that old, AF, honest! It's just my brain...

whoa, I shall have to start coming on this board more often

I have been getting a bit disillusioned with it recently, due to the derailers and the deliberately stupid provocative. There is currently another thread on here that I dipped my toe in recently, but found it being presided over by a fuckwit, so I tactfully withdrew.

I would like to see more threads like this.

Well sadly not all women are truly FR equality, they just spout the same stuff men do. It can be quite hollow.

Prolesworth Thank you ever so much for providing that link. This is a particular area of interest/rant mine so I am delighted to have a copy for free!

I think performing femininity doesn't prevent you from being a feminist as long as you recognise why you (general you) are doing so.

Most of us are socialised to behave in certain ways whether it's make up, clothing, ways of speaking, marriage or whatever. Doing so unthinkingly, without pausing to wonder why you do it and what you gain and lose by doing it makes the action more unfeminist IMO.

I also shave, wax, wear make up and wear heals. I like feeling pretty in a patriarchally acceptable way. Most of us make deals with the patriarchy in order to get along in it and, frankly, there are worse things to do then put a frock on and doing your hair.

Or, as Georgette Heyer (almost) said, "Of course there are more important things than clothes. But not when one is dressing for dinner." :o

I've really been thinking about this and I think I should talk to my shrink about it. I've been pondering behaviours I've always considered 'normal' and wondering if they're not so normal after all. For example the only time DP gets to see me without makeup is in the shower. I reapply before bed, even though I can reluctantly admit I don't really need makeup. I think my father may have rooted some deep seated self hatred by constantly calling me disgusting and repulsive etc..Sorry to get so dark. :(

It's an endless debate about whether you can indulge in the trappings (pun! ha ha!) of conventional femininity and be a feminist. But I think what's more important than what you actually do or not, is whether you question those things. Why do you do them and do you genuinely enjoy it, or are you going along with a convention without analyzing it?

Only an individual can deal with a debate like "I'm starting to wonder if my obsession with makeup and heels is because my self confidence is so low". Maybe it's true. If you see a woman without those things, do you respect her any less? Or yourself less, if you did the same?

I do like the expression "performing femininity".

When I was your age, Lurker, women on marches were horrible to my friend and me because of our appearance. I was a little bit wiser then, and didn't bother engaging with people who were displaying such hatred towards me ... but the fact, now as then, is that a feminist who reviles another feminist for her appearance is behaving just as badly as a man who does it.

It is worth examining why you do certain beauty practices - the books referenced above are v. interesting. I massacre my pubes if I'm going swimming, since I don't want to inflict my strays on innocent bystanders. But I stopped doing it "for him" or on a promise, etc, because that would be conforming to a porn-led stereotype. Some might think differently.

Pride in one's hair is older than humanity! Apes preen their hair - male and female! You go right on glossing, sweetheart :)

Oh ... not directly political, but try this: (I've been doing it for years, it works)

Take a couple of minutes to look at yourself in the mirror, without makeup. Make a conscious effort to like something about your face. You've said you're pretty, and I believe you are. Like something in exactly the way you'd like something about a girl on the bus who looks nice - lovely smooth skin today? Nice eyelashes, huh? Something each day :) After you've admired it, smile at your reflection and forget about it for the day.

There's a little notice on my bathroom mirror. It says "You look nice." All my visitors love it!

www.google.co.uk/search?q=shere+hite&hl=en&rlz=1T4GGHP_enGB472GB474&prmd=imvnsbo&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=0brgT_mtNIjs8gPV8ryUDw&ved=0CGgQsAQ&biw=1366&bih=578

Is Shere Hite still a feminist or has she discovered 'erotic capital' or some such idiocy? She is certainly traditionally glamorous. So was Christabel Pankhurst, but she did support WW1 among other political problems...feet of clay