do you believe in the patriarchy?

[bejeezusWC]

A poster on another thread said she views feminism as the struggle against patriarchy. That is how I view it too. I believe that is considered the rad fem stance?

Another poster said she didn't believe in patriarchy

I don't geddit

Why/how are women so unequal if not for patriarchal societies? WHO has been oppressing us?

Please tell me what you think, if you don't believe in patriarchy

No one is saying that patriarchy doesn't exist. What I am saying is that even if men did not oppress women based purely on our sex, there would still be opression of women. Therefor patriarchy is too simplistic a concept and kyriarchy explains the intersectionality of opression much better.

Naming and fighting patriarchy puts the needs of wsomen first. That is what is important.

I need to read your link eclectic -does that explain where you are coming from?

because as it stands...you seem to be saying that even if men werent oppressing women because they are women...they would still be oppressing them [because of other factors]

?

I'm saying women are oppressed by other influences too, so if we weren't oppressed because of our sex, we would still be open to oppression from other sources.

What do you think of internalized oppression?

Womens needs must not be put first... That would be female supremacy?

In the fight against discrimination and prejudice, I put women's needs first. Why is that aiming for female supremacy?

I recognise for example that in the fight aginst racism many activists put the needs of black people first. This is fine.

You're missing my point, by focusing on patriarchy, you are failing deal with the other sources of oppression on women.

Or do you only have an interest in the things women suffer when they are purely a result of them being female? Is that it? So you're fighting oppression based on sex when it's targeted towards women... But not when it's targeted towards men and not when women are oppressed for any reason other than their sex?

Of course feminism is about focussing on the other forms of oppression women experience. You think feminists haven't been instrumental in fighting all kinds of oppression against women? What its not about is focussing on the oppression experienced by men. Thats the real difference.

And I focus my efforts on fighting against oppression experienced by women - not oppression experienced by men.

what other sources of oppression on women? Black women may be oppressed because they are black women (by white people (for the sake of arguement)), poor women may be oppressed because they are poor (by richer people) but that doesnt negate the fact that women are oppressed by men because they are women

The effects of it are widespread and plain to see

You may not want to focus on that aspect of oppression...but many people dont want the issue clouded by other issues...because it is hard to move forward if you take on every oppression ever. It takes some focus, clarity and determination doesnt it

Or do you only have an interest in the things women suffer when they are purely a result of them being female? Is that it? So you're fighting oppression based on sex when it's targeted towards women... But not when it's targeted towards men and not when women are oppressed for any reason other than their sex

thats feminism

I think like lots of women I have been pulled into fighting oppression - by action I mean - that affects men and women. I don't largely see men return the favour to women. I am tired of fighting for things that benefit men and so prioritise women.

You can't fight everything. I don't mean challenge stuff verbally - of course I do that. I mean real grassroots political action. With that I do focus on the needs of women. I think not enough people do.

so essentially there's no point fighting oppression because we'll all be oppressed by something else instead so we might as well stick with the oppression we've got? better the devil you know?

fucking amazing lack of basic intelligence common sense on this thread to accompany the deliberate twisting of words. the two fit together well - the lacking in common sense swallow the twisty bx of the deliberate twisters and they make a little team of illogic and nonsense.

this brings us full circle then...to 3 (?) threads ago.....

it explains why RadFem2012 was cancelled and why people get so upset that Radfems wont accomodate TGs sensibilities.....

Yes bejeezus - we are not allowed to focus on just women. We have to look at everybody else's issues first - especially men's

SAF, I did not say "so essentially there's no point fighting oppression because we'll all be oppressed by something else instead so we might as well stick with the oppression we've got? better the devil you know? "

It's quite apparent that some of the posters here hold rad fem ideologies as gospel. I don't, I'm not a rad fem but I am a feminist and an egalitarian. We will not see eye to eye on many topics as we are coming from completely different angles. Internalised oppression springs to mind.

The existence of multiple forms of oppression does not negate the existence of one specific type of oppression.

It doesn't really require any mental gymnastics to believe in both racism and patriarchy, or to believe that some people are doubly oppressed by virtue of being both women and poor.

Focusing on patriarchy does not mean denial of other bases of inequality, it just means focusing on one thing for maximum effect. Is that so strange? That's what political activism is.

Yes, if you only focus on the patriarchy when discussing and debating about topics that oppress women, it is bad, it's myopic. However, I can understand that when it comes to actions, you do need to focus your efforts.

Eclectic - What do you think we should do? Do you think we should focus on fighting every single type of oppression all at once? I don't mean verbally challenge it, of course we should do that - I mean grassroots activism

eclectic I didnt even know what 'Rad-Fem' meant until I joined in the thread which proceeded this one

Its just the basics of direct action/grass roots movement isnt it....you cant be all encompassing. It doesnt mean people dont care about what is outside their sphere of action...it just means they have to rely on someone else tackling that particular problem....

x posted. In that case I agree with you. Of course all feminists including radical feminist talk about racism, oppression of the poor, etc. We even talk about oppression on boys and men. But in terms of grassroots activism, you have to focus and prioritise. And I prioritise patriarchy and women

You still need to engage intellectually with all oppressors of women in order to understand how inequality can be alleviated. My point is that the term patriarchy when used in debate and discussion is misleading and unhelpful.

Women, back of the queue!

We have to sort out all these other issues of oppression that male dominated society has spawned such as racism, classism, ableism, etc before you ladies are allowed to pipe up about, um, the crapness of male dominated society and how it spawns oppressive hierarchies. We've come up with a special name for it and everything - we thought we'd take the 'patriarchal' bit out of it so we can take the focus off that pesky male dominated bit.