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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Was anyone else outraged by the clerics comments on Question Time last night?

131 replies

mrsruffallo · 11/05/2012 12:46

All the blame was focused on the victims involved in the recently reported grooming case. Apparently the way the girls were dressed and the fact they were out at night was the causen for them being repeatedly gang raped.
And what on earth were the comments about 'having sex for a packet of crisps'??
I am appalled.

OP posts:
grammar · 11/05/2012 17:47

Look, I'm not going to get into a slanging match about this. I'm, responding to the debate started by the OP which I saw last night. There was , as worried betty said a point in there that was not entirely unreasonable. Give it another look perhaps?

Lovecat · 11/05/2012 17:51

I was shouting at the telly! And at the locals on the news, one of whom kept repeating 'it takes two to tango'.... Angry words fail me. Bloody victim-blamers. Poor children :(

TheCrackFox · 11/05/2012 17:54

I'm not going to give it a look.

Society has been blaming everyone, apart from the actual rapist, for millennia. Has it stopped women and children from being raped? No.

I didn't watch Question Time last night but I think that cleric should apologise fir his comments.

grammar · 11/05/2012 18:03

I am just trying to interpret what he said. I'm neither blaming the victims nor condoning the perpetrators. But it's useless to become so hot-headed about something that it negates a global, holistic and carefully thought out strategy to try and cope with it. And that includes society's role in it's sometimes negligent lack of nurture of children whether they are from loving families or, more importantly, those being looked after in care.

TheCrackFox · 11/05/2012 18:11

I'll interpret what he said - he is a misogynist arsehole.

grammar · 11/05/2012 18:13

But am I right in thinking you didn't see it, crackfox?

AyeRobot · 11/05/2012 18:15

A holistic strategy would mean people actually discussing (in the papers, in the pubs, in government etc) male violence and especially violence towards women. If this case doesn't generate that, then I don't know what will.

AbigailAdams · 11/05/2012 18:19

Wtf are you talking about grammar "But it's useless to become so hot-headed about something that it negates a global, holistic and carefully thought out strategy to try and cope with it."

We are angry, not unreasonable or irrational. And the "global, holistic and carefully thought out strategy" (whatever the fuck that is) is to put the blame where it is deserved - with the rapists, not victim blame and not perpetuate rape myths.

The only way to stop rape is for men to stop raping.

grammar · 11/05/2012 18:23

You're right, AyeRobot, we don't; but that doesn't mean we should get so hot headed that we can't try and achieve that.

GrimmaTheNome · 11/05/2012 18:26

Of course it would be better if we collectively cared for children better so they weren't so vulnerable - these poor girls have been totally let down.

But - people like these rapists will always find someone to prey on. They are 100% responsible for their own actions. There is no excuse for what they did.

grammar · 11/05/2012 18:28

As I've said before, I have been trying to interpret the cleric's comments on Question time last night. The solution needs more than 'anger'.

bemybebe · 11/05/2012 18:33

"Instead of blaming unloved children for being raped perhaps you should point the finger at the men who thought it was perfectly acceptable to rape children and then give them a packet of crisps as compensation."

That. And those trying to find a rational explanation for these bastards behaviour should really question their own values methinks.

CrunchyFrog · 11/05/2012 22:16

There's a teenage disco once a month near my home.

Girls as young as 13 dressed in vertiginous heels and tiny dresses, necking as much booze as possible before going in.

My brother and I were passing one evening and found a very young girl, legs akimbo, close to passing out drunk, slumped in a doorway. This was about 8pm.

Was she in danger of being raped? No. Because my brother was horrified, and we took her phone, rang her parents and sat with her until they arrived. The normal, human reaction to a vulnerable child, I would have thought.

I'm not condoning the behaviour, I hate seeing young teens dressed that way - but not because they are inciting paedophilia, as some seem to think. Because they have bought wholesale the message that you have to be attractive, in a very narrow set of ways, in order to be worth anything at all.

I spoke to the police that night and asked them what they were doing. Nothing. The police officer described the disco as "a paedo's wet dream." They don't even call the kids' parents. Middle class area, middle class kids.

That cleric had me spitting feathers. Yes, early sexualisation (and the continuing fetishisation of sexual youth throughout life) is a massive problem, but what caused this particular case? Rapists. Men who believed they had a right to fuck children with impunity. The root of the problem is male violence, not what their victims were doing at the time.

messyisthenewtidy · 11/05/2012 22:30

"If someone ran over a child and received a suitable custodial sentance, would that mean that we don't teach our children how to cross the road safely?"

But at the same time we also teach people how to drive carefully, through tests, speed awareness courses, and emphasize that drivers have a responsibility to society.

Yet when it comes to rape, people have plenty of advice on how women should make themselves safe and are quick to point out the ways in which modern culture has produced a legion of loose drunk young women but are slow to look at how that same culture gives young men a huge sense of entitlement over women's bodies, which are basically up for their consumption on daily basis.

The only people banging on about it are feminists and no one listens to us anyway Angry

ReactionaryFish · 11/05/2012 22:35

FFS there is no point comparing a road death with rape. One is an accident. Unintended. The other is a deliberate act. no-one is making these men do this. These crimes were unbelievably disgusting. as others have said, the only thing that will stop rape is for men to stop raping. And there are some communities in this country that need be taking a very hard look at themselves and the attitudes to women and girls they are incubating.

Pan · 11/05/2012 22:43

I will admit to being deeply incensed. Last week I commenced a thread about what men can do to prevent further sexual violence against girls and women, in Dadsnet. This was well in advance of the Rochdale cases being brought to court for sentence.

What happened to it? It was pulled because it eventually turned into a bun fight/exchange of slurs. No 'party' on that thread had the notion of self-restraint, decency, or interest in pursuing the better goal of preventing further actual harm to children or women. Rather it turned into a show of bitter factionalism between some male posters who derided 'radfems' specifically, and others who objected/mocked any 'male' attempt t oaddress male sexual violence seriously.

I mention this here as the failure of the cleric to recognise male sexual violence is being rightly condemned. Yet a powerful, media-influential organ like MN can't draw out those crucial issues via it's posters without descending into personal point-scoring exercise. Lets not condemn the cleric on here, without self-reflecting on stuff we could have developed, esp. the male posters amongst us.

thechairmanmeow · 11/05/2012 22:50

no one has blamed those girls for what happend to them, not the preacher or anyone on the pannel, and nor has grammer.

nothing worse than people who twist other peoples words so they can have a go the demon who lives between their ears.

the men are guilty and of a heinous crime , there is very little to say about that.

if we dont want this to happen again what do we do?, the task force someone mentioned , good idea maybe, but if anyone looks at the girls to look at why they might have been picked by the rapists is met with a barrage of "you cant blame them!!!" well, NO ONE IS!!!!

like the girl in the audience said , girls should be able to wear what they want, and if they were not in sexualised clothing ( which we dont know they were ) they would have probobly been singled out by the rapists anyway.

the preacher guy diddnt word things well even by his own admission but i dont think it's nessesary to demonise him as a mysogenist

messyisthenewtidy · 11/05/2012 22:53

To give an example, every sitcom today seems to have the stereotypical sex-starved player, who will try every trick in the book to get as many women as possible to have sex with him, and then of course to not call any of them back. And these characters are not presented as evil womanizers but as lovable hero guys that we are supposed to feel sorry for.

The women they discard are always presented as bimbo airheads, so naive that they practically deserve to be taken advantage of, so of course the viewer can still feel sympathy for the man. It just sends out the wrong message telling men that all's fair in the pursuit of sex and blaming women for their naivety.

thechairmanmeow · 11/05/2012 22:58

christ....abigail

"The only way to stop rape is for men to stop raping"

no, the only way to stop rape is for rapists to stop rapeing.

messyisthenewtidy · 11/05/2012 22:58

"well, NO ONE IS!!!" you are kidding aren't you? Where have you been this last couple of weeks? Did you miss the whole Ched Evans case?

ReactionaryFish · 11/05/2012 23:00

oh yes, let's leap to rebut the "all men are rapists" arguyment (which no-one has actually made), chairmanmeow, because that's what really important here.
All those poor innocent men being defamed.
For fuck's sake.

thechairmanmeow · 11/05/2012 23:00

"well, NO ONE IS!!!" you are kidding aren't you? Where have you been this last couple of weeks? Did you miss the whole Ched Evans case?

yes

Pan · 11/05/2012 23:00

chairman - do you know what 'rape' in this country means? And who does it?

thechairmanmeow · 11/05/2012 23:01

googleing

Pan · 11/05/2012 23:02

You'll find it under the Sexual Offences Act 2003, Sect 1 I think.

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