Feminism and the idea of a man or woman trapped in the wrong body are contradictory ideas

[EatsBrainsAndLeaves]

This post is in response to another thread where posters wanted to discuss this, but didn't want to derail the thread. So I said I would start the thread here.

A basic element of feminism is that women and men are born as that sex - biologically men/women, but society socialises us to behave as our alloted gender. Gender is the idea that women and men behave in certain ways. And we are all socialised in this even if we reject it or try to as adults.

For example, research shows that people treat the same babies differently depending on whether they are told they are boys or girls. The media pumps images to our DCs about what a girl or a boy should be interested in, play with and wear. Teachers are more likely to allow boys to speak out to the whole class than girls - well researched.

Feminism challenges these gender constructs and says that girls and boys can enjoy doing the same things, etc. Transexuals talk about being born in the wrong body e.g. born in a male body, but feeling like they are really a girl/woman.

But this is obviously at odds with feminism. Sex is a biological fact. You are born in a male or female body. Behaving or feeling like a man/woman is supposed to feel, is an artificial construct. Because what does a man or woman feel like? We only feel like ourselves as individuals. So any idea of feeling a man or a woman or a boy or a girl is based on an artifacial idea of how a boy/girl is supposed to feel.

So the basic idea of being born in the wrong body, is contradictory to the basic ideas of feminism.

Oops, White, just missed that you said 'neutral' earlier. As you were.

I'm off now, will come back to this convo later. It's been fascinating, though!

That's interesting that you don't see your body as part of you, but rather as a container, whiteshores.

I definitely don't feel like that. My body is intrinsic to who I am, we cannot be separated.

Feeling like a woman feels like being me. Same as feeling like a human does.

Would you have the same feeling about your species, that you could just swap it and it wouldn't make a difference. Or how about height - maybe if you were put into a healthy body a foot smaller or taller.

Nyac

I think thats why the definitions of biological sex and gender-identity do need to be carefully laid out in order to have a decent discussion.

They are not the same thing (as you seem to agree).

We've been using the definitions:

biological sex (XX, XY, intersex), usually with associated other biology
gender/gender identity (what you feel and self-identify as)
gender role (what society expects of your behaviours)

Woman/man seems to have been used mostly for gender-identity
Male/female is more useful for biology (but people do seem to flip back and forth).

Bottom line is: we need words to describe what we specifically mean, and somewhere along the line the majority consensus is going to have to agree on which words we use for which category.

Just before I leave, White, I find your gender id statement fascinating. If I were a scientist I'd want to scan your brain to see what's going on inside!

Sea,

I get painfully confused when people try to overly distinguish between sex and gender (except for grammar) and I suspect a lot of people outside a narrow area of study use them fairly interchangeably. I think that, for example, when Nyac says that trans people believe in sex rather than gender, that is not a universal statement of truth. The way they would put it is that they were born in "the wrong body" and always felt that they were the opposite sex than they were born. So, I suppose, in a literal sense, they are talking about sex. But, if sex is determined by chromosomes, then they would not be able to change sex, so they are thinking in terms of biological and behavioural expressions of their chromosomal sex (although I guess some feminists would argue that there is such thing as a behavioural expression of sex). I.E they want society to assume that they were born the other sex and to demonstrate that by changing their sexual organs (for some) and their behaviour.

Is that biology or gender?

Ooh, let me make something clear...

I do feel that my body is part of me.

When I say I do not feel that attached to my body, I do not mean that I have no fondness for it, or see it as part of my current identity (it is, my sex identity).

I mean I am not attached as in permanently fixed. I feel that my mind/soul/spirit (whatever you want to call it, the I inside me) is currently housed in my body, but is not my body.

Maybe it helps that if I believed in any afterlife (I'm not sure if I do), I would believe in reincarnation... mostly because I can easily imagine having different bodies (even other species, yes).

Right now though, I am housed in this body... and as such I do care for it, and it comprises part of my current identity as a whole (my biological/sexual identity), but does not match my gender-identity (I do not feel like a woman, I feel like an individual entity).

I think the problem is with the term identity.

Being a man or a woman isn't an identity it's a state of being.

I think a lot of words are being misused here.

Nyac

I do understand about the definitions, I honestly get your point. :)

The trouble is that for this conversation, we needed some definitions, so we agreed on some. We're not lobbying to have the dictionary changed... but as it stands the dictionary doesn't seem to have any words that do specifically mean what we mean.

The language in this whole area is definitely going to have to change and get more specific, but in the meantime we're a bit stuck with making do.

I think it is really odd that considering oneself not to have an internal gender identity is seen as an oddity.

Nobody has ever done any kind of study to see if randomly selected people have an internal gender identity.

Nobody has ever done any kind of scientific study to show that random people have brain types that match up with an internal gender identity.

And yet on the basis that a few people who particular political interests and a bit of knowledge of queer theory have declared themselves to have one, they are making the assumption that people with no such identity are unusual.

We're not using dictionary definitions here, we're using the ones we agreed on and laid out earlier upthread.

The dictionary has terms that specifically mean what I mean.

When I say woman, I mean adult human female which is also what the dictionary says, because that is always what woman has meant or other words for women. I'm not giving up my reality (not identity) to some men's feelings without a fight.

Exactly SeaHouses. Somehow the exceptions have demanded to make the rules.

Larry, the difference between sex and gender is not from a narrow field of study. DS has been taught it several times in state secondary school, and he is 13.

I can only keep repeating that most trans people do not feel they were born in the wrong body. They just perceive that the body they have is the same as the gender they feel. So if they feel female and have a penis, they perceive their penis as a female one. If they are male and have a vulva, they perceive their vulva as a male one. The problem that arises is that many other people initially categorise man and woman based on physical appearance rather than on the person's feelings, particularly if they are strangers.

So comparing you waking up in a woman's body and being uncomfortable is not the same as trans. According to the trans ideas of it, if you couldn't wake up in a woman's body because you're a man. Thus any body you woke up in would be male, even if it had a womb, breasts etc.

Nyac

I am glad you have words that mean what you mean.

But I need a word that means: "what you feel and self-identify as in terms of gender"

And a word for each variation of person that has chosen that previous word (which is not the same as biological sex).

Right now the dictionary doesn't have any words that mean those things... so we've had to basically use our own definitions.

Using those definitions (the ones we've laid out), I can say that:

It is not possible to choose sex (because we are using sex as biologically defined), but it is possible to choose gender (because we are using gender as individually defined in the mind).

I have no other way to describe what I mean because the dictionary hasn't got enough words in it yet.

And Nyac I fully understand why you want to keep the definitions that have been traditionally so.

The problem is that until new words are created, people will have no choice but to make their own definitions for the purpose of individual discussions like this one. (and clearly lay them out, because it is confusing otherwise)

One of the reasons words exist though is to reflect what happens in the real world. I don't think it's a good idea to take words that reflect a concrete demonstrable reality, and twist them into something that is a highly questionable concept at the very least.

Normally when people are lacking a word they create neologisms.

On the other hand taking the term woman and turning its meaning into "what a man feels he is" is a political move and not a good one for women.

Which takes us back to the topic of this thread.

We need new sets of words for:

• man/woman (different words for biological vs internal feeling)
• male/female (different words for biological vs internal feeling)

• a word for the internal feeling (we've been using gender)
• a word for the biology (XX, XY, intersex - often with associated features)

We need different words because historically all of these words have been based off biology. And biology is not the same as what we're trying to talk about.

When I say different words, I mean words as distinct from each other.

Eg. A word for internal self-identity as distinct from chromosomal biology.

White,

We have a word for the chromosomal biology, it is "chromosomes". Sexual organs are male or female genitalia and male or female secondary sexual characteristics. We do not have a good word for male or female brain structure yet as we are not entirely sure of its existence/importance and what exactly it consists of. And I guess our "feeling" of being man/woman is "gender".

And we are not sure that biology is not what we are talking about when we look at brain structure and chemistry. It might yet be.

what about:

Manalogical
Maninternal

Womalogical
Wominternal

?

It would be GREAT if we could coin neologisms for all these new states of being.

Brain structure and chemistry is biology.

Mind is not biology.

Brain and mind are not the same thing (though they may influence each other).

And no, chromosomes is not an adequate word because it does not mean the totality of what I mean, and is only a descriptor.

Eg. I could not simply say, "I am a chromsome".

At the very least I would have to say, "I have XX chromosomes" or "I am an XX-chromosomal woman."

Likewise, the dictionary defined description of someone with a gender-feeling would be "They are a gender woman."

We need a word (preferably single) that replaces those statements.

Otherwise, people will continually use man/woman when they mean one or the other and without a consensus about what the default is, it will always get very confusing when trying to discuss the specifics.

I think perhaps the issue is Larry that people in general don't want their brain chemistry looked at and then told that is what gender they are. Trans people have already decided what their gender identity is.

I mean, would you want that done; would you like to be given a brain scan, and then if the results come back and they say you are a woman, are you then going to accept society treating you at all times as female?

I don't see who this idea of brain chemistry is in the interests of. Who wants that to be the defining characteristic? Would we do the same thing for race or sexual orientation? Some people on here have argued that sexual orientation is innate. Does that mean you want brain chemistry to divided everybody up as gay or straight?

White,

You would say that "I am genetically female" not "I am a chromosome". That would imply you were XX chromosomally.