Feminism and the idea of a man or woman trapped in the wrong body are contradictory ideas

[EatsBrainsAndLeaves]

This post is in response to another thread where posters wanted to discuss this, but didn't want to derail the thread. So I said I would start the thread here.

A basic element of feminism is that women and men are born as that sex - biologically men/women, but society socialises us to behave as our alloted gender. Gender is the idea that women and men behave in certain ways. And we are all socialised in this even if we reject it or try to as adults.

For example, research shows that people treat the same babies differently depending on whether they are told they are boys or girls. The media pumps images to our DCs about what a girl or a boy should be interested in, play with and wear. Teachers are more likely to allow boys to speak out to the whole class than girls - well researched.

Feminism challenges these gender constructs and says that girls and boys can enjoy doing the same things, etc. Transexuals talk about being born in the wrong body e.g. born in a male body, but feeling like they are really a girl/woman.

But this is obviously at odds with feminism. Sex is a biological fact. You are born in a male or female body. Behaving or feeling like a man/woman is supposed to feel, is an artificial construct. Because what does a man or woman feel like? We only feel like ourselves as individuals. So any idea of feeling a man or a woman or a boy or a girl is based on an artifacial idea of how a boy/girl is supposed to feel.

So the basic idea of being born in the wrong body, is contradictory to the basic ideas of feminism.

Nyac,

"Larry is there a test for chemicals in the brains of trans that demonstrate that they are in fact trans?

What you've quoted there is pure speculation and demonstrates nothing about the brains of men who are claiming to be women.

Even if it did - why would we decide that what happens in the brain is more important than genitalia, which are the main sex difference."

Not as far as I know, although it seems that scans when solving certain tasks show different brain areas lighting up when women and men are asked to perform them. People are thinking of using this to treat male and female stroke victims differently. I am sure it would also (and maybe is) be an interesting area of research on transsexuals.

Yes, it is pure speculation, though based on some real science, and no different from your dogmatic assertions which are equally based on speculation. The only difference is that my ideas are based on science and yours based on political dogma.

"Also, Larry are you an academic working in this area. Because if you aren't, I'm not understanding why you're dismissing people who disagree with you as non-academic.
Academia doens't have the last word on what is a woman either. It's a patriarchal institution so it's always going to uphold patriarchal values and look after men's interests."

No I am not an academic but my points have been based on cited academic work, as you can see. And your ideas are based on what please? I totally disagree on your second point, and it is also self contradictory with your view on trans. What a woman is biologically is based on science, which is normally conducted in academia. How a woman chooses to act is another matter altogether.

This AGAIN...?

I think MayaAngelCoo (and I'm really trying to understand feminism better, so anyone feel free to enlighten me if wrong), about this statement:

 You quote: "Just a thought: perhaps it's more useful to think of the structure of our gender identity as being held in three places: biological brain, biological body, and socialised brain."

I believe that this is probably the idea many feminists object to. Biological women are often assigned automatically to a feminine gender role (which they may not want), because they are told it is part of their biology, and intrinsic to being a woman.

I know that personally I disagree with this (even though I am not sure yet where I identify with feminism). I do not want any gender role imposed on and expected of me by society because of my biology (especially since society is very good at punishing those who do not conform).

I would therefore argue that sex is based on fixed biology and gender identity is based on more fluid psychological/social factors, although obviously sex may often have a lot of influence on gender identity (based on the way society reacts to your biology). Likewise, many who have a particular gender identity may desire the matching biological sex (eg. femininity matched with female sex)... but these two things are only matched together in the first place because society says it must be so, and tends to punish you if they are not.

We're saying the same thing! Perhaps the confusion was because I used the phrase 'gender identity' rather than 'sexual identity' - but I'm sure you can see why!

So we have:

Body (i.e genitalia, etc, which are mostly either male or female)
Brain (i.e. hormones and other structures, which are mostly either male or female)
Socialisation - which, for example, is what makes some people more girly, and some not

People can have any combination of the three structures above, though the typical physical combinations are: 'Body + Brain female' or 'Body and Brain Male'.

I would agree with the grouping: body, mind, socialisation. But I'm just getting nitpicky because I can't see the brain as anything but another part of the body, and not separate from it.

Mind however, I would put in its own distinct category. :)

I would add that the reason for the nitpickiness is that I think its very important not to tell someone what their mind is, because of what their biological brain is (eg. telling women they must be more hysterical/emotional individuals, because of the hormones in their brain).

Certainly, I would agree the brain can influence the mind (just as the body can), and the mind can influence the brain (just as it can influence the body). But the brain is not the mind.

Sorry, going on (I'm really very fascinated by this), I would also add that I would find it wrong to tell someone that they are a certain gender identity because of their biological brain.

I really believe that only we (inside our minds) as individuals can say what gender identity is for us (if anything, I don't identify as a gender).

Maya,

I think you have summed it up very well.

I guess the question is what combination of the above would allow a "man" to consider himself a "woman" or vice versa, and does it really matter?

White,

I don't think the issue here is telling someone to take on a gender identity but the opposite; whether it is acceptable for someone to choose a gender identity different to their biological attributes (brain, chromosomes of sex organs).

I would say off the cuff that the mind is developed through a combination of internal and external factors: i.e. the combination of socialisation plus brain gender creates the mind gender.

I also agree with larry that I'm not saying what anyone's gender id should be, but trying to unpack what it is that gives us a gender, biological or otherwise.

And i don't think it really matters what a person considers themselves to be; it's not something that requires a value judgement. It just is.

Maya,

I think that your last statement is a little idealistic and there are areas of life where women (and men, though maybe to a lesser extent) want to be separated from the other sex. How would you feel if, for instance, a 15 stone bearded man entered the ladies' lavatories and insisted that he had a right to use them as he was a woman?! I think the crux of the OP was about whether transgendered individuals with male sex organs should have a right to enter "woman only" spaces.

I think that society does (and should) place some label on a person's gender for practical reasons. The question, which is a difficult one, is how and where to draw that line, and to what purpose the label is used once applied. I don't think there are any easy answers.

larrygrylls

I think people should be allowed to select whatever gender-identity they wish, regardless of any biology, or how they were raised, etc.

I also believe there are probably many, many influences on what does give us our gender-identity, but I think the difficulty is that society does tend to then raise expectations - eg. "Aha! You have a vagina, therefore your gender-identity must be feminine", or "You have a 'female brain' (whatever that may be), and therefore your gender-identity should be feminine!" etc. etc.

I really believe that the only place that has the final say on gender identity, is the mind of the individual identifying as such, regardless of any biology - body or brain (which is part of the body).

Ugh, I now see that perhaps where I thought we were in agreement, we are actually not in the same space regarding what gender identity is and what sex is.

Using the definitions:
Sex = fixed biological assignment from birth (XX, XY, or intersex)
Gender identity = whether the person feels like a man, woman, or neither.

I would agree that a person has an absolute right to proclaim their own gender identity as whichever they wish. However, biological sex is a statement of fact and is not alterable by wishes, desires, or feelings.

Which is why I find it very murky if we start to say biology (fixed and assigned from birth - whether brain or genitals) is what determines our gender-identity (who we are inside).

White,

I think the separation of biology from gender is a murky area and only really matters in how you apply it. For instance, are sex discrimination laws about gender or biology? Are access to lavatories about gender or biology?

Clearly, in people's private lives, they can consider themselves to be whomever they choose. On the other hand, when they interact with other people, society needs to assign a sex to them for the reasons mentioned in my first paragraph.

And, if the first paragraph is about biology and not gender, then we get back to our original discussion; is the biology primarily about organs, brain or chromosomes, or some combination of those three?

I would say society in general makes its laws and rules based on biological sex.

Society also unfortunately believes that a certain biological sex = a certain gender identity (mostly because they believe gender identity is biological!)

A person cannot be 'assigned a sex', because sex is biological and fixed, but they can be assigned a gender (many of us don't identify with a gender - eg. I am biologically female but do not feel like a woman or a man). They can also take on the appearance of a particular sex.

Taking on the appearance of a particular sex is often done because society assumes that sex = gender, and therefore will not treat a woman-gendered person like a woman unless they also appear biologically female.

Not all biological females want to be treated 'like a woman' (or a man for that matter), and want to break down the differences in treatment altogether.

The most logical classification for biology that I can think of is that chromosomes are the determinant of sex (present throughout the entire body, one of the very first components of conception, and holders of the blueprint for the rest of the biology).

With chromosomes as a determinent (XX-female, XY-male, XXY, X0 etc - intersex), you can then start to group certain other biological characteristics that tend to appear (but not necessarily!) eg. - penis, vagina, bone structure, internal reproductive organs, hormones.

Any or all of these components still contribute only to biological sex (with chromosomes having the final say), whereas any or all of these components may influence gender-identity (or may not), and the individual's mind has the final say.

Gender is socially constructed not individually constructed. It's what happens when we're born female and get pink shit thrown at us. I don't get to pick what gender gets placed on me, society does. I can like 'masculine' things but that doesn't mean my gender changes. It means I don't fit into the restrictive socially constructed norms of gender.'Feminine' things are not innately female, society constructs them as such. So liking 'feminine' things is nothing to do with my innate gender. They're only 'feminine' cos they are socially constructed as such.

For me with have
biological sex; XX, XY or intersex:
gender identity; controversy about whether this can/should be imposed from without
patterns of behaviour: some traits, skills, preferences are labelled as "female" some are labelled as "male"; controversy about whether these labels are grounded in biology or not

I don't see how it is actually helpful to start attempting to divide people into those with male brains and those with female brains based on some sort of scientific test.

What happens if you are a transgender individual and it turns out your biological brain matches the rest of your biological body and not your gender identity? Are you then not allowed to be transgender?

What about somebody who is not transgender and it turns out their biological brain doesn't match the rest of their biological body? Are they then told they have to be transgender?

If gender is socially constructed, then there is no such thing as innate gender - eg. we are not born with it, but have it imposed upon us based on assumptions about it equalling our biology (unless we assert differently).

Your sex is innate (biological), but your gender is relatively flexible over time depending on your own feelings and wishes to self-identify, and on what a specific gender (woman or man) actually means in society.

I think we have:

Biological sex: based on chromosones
Internal Gender Identity: a feeling that some trans and non-trans people have which tells them which gender they are which has no relationship to their experience of their physical body.
Gender role: boys like blue, girls like pink etc.

These all seem to be separate concepts.

I agree SeaHouses, the definitions are really important in order to be able to actually talk about this meaningfully. :)

larry, what you are saying is that where we don't place value judgements on gender identity, it creates problems.

But when we do place value judgements on gender identity, it still creates problems for someone! We're never going to be able to find solutions that don't throw up their own problems; we just have to find the best possible way of operating and deal with other issues as they're raised.

To my mind, if a person's body and brain gender identity are mismatched, it is because they are born that way. Just as I am born with a body and brain gender match. Why should I get to be the woman I want to be, but they don't get to be the man/ woman/ intersex person that they want to be? It's cruel, and unfair.

White, while the ideal is to identify biological sex as purely XX or XY, do we know what chromosomal patterns exist in transgender people? And what gender their brains say they are? Without this information you cannot decide for somebody else what gender they should be. It is a murky area, but why on earth would you expect to be able to simplify it?

MayaAngelCool

I am saying that biological sex does not determine gender identity.

Therefore whether a person is born male (XX), female (XY), or intersex (XXY, X0, etc.) it has no bearing on what gender identity they choose to self identify as.

An individual's mind (not biological brain) has the final say on what gender-identity they are, and nothing or no one else.

I would never tell somebody what gender they are (only they can decide that), but biological sex is about your physicality and nothing to do with how you self-identify.

Therefore - a baby is born XX = they are biologically female, but who knows what their gender identity is until they are old enough to say so?

A baby is born XXY = they are biologically intersex, but who knows what their gender identity is until they are old enough to say so? etc. etc.

I'd also like to point out that lots of people simply do not have an internal gender identity, and so have to self identify based either on biological sex or on gender roles.

Agreed SeaHouses, I am XX (biologically female), all reproductive bits (currently pregnant) and most likely have a completely 'female brain' if scanned, complete with all the hormones etc.

Does that mean I have a feminine gender-identity? Nope. I don't feel like a woman. :)

Biological sex and gender-identity are not the same.

Gender identity doesn't exist, it's just been dreamed up by trans to justify their claims to be women. Somehow it also trumps biology and physical reality. Which is probably why it's so heavily promoted.

It's like saying someone has a height identity or a species identity or a foot size identity and it's lucky when the internal "identity" matches up to external reality. It's nonsensical when you examine it closely. But because of misogyny, which believes that women shouldn't exist, or if we do that we're not really real or human, it's easy to claim that a feeling (a man's feeling that is) should trump any kind of female reality.