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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Why "fun feminism" should be consigned to the rubbish bin

562 replies

Nyac · 07/05/2012 18:43

article by Julie Bindel in the New Statesman.

www.newstatesman.com/blogs/the-staggers/2011/08/fun-feminism-women-feminist

Quote:

"We need to bring back the radical edge to feminism, and do away with any notion that slutwalking, lap dancing, sex working or Burkha-wearing is liberation for women. If men like a particular brand of feminism, it means it is not working. "Fun feminism" should be consigned to the rubbish bin along with the Lib Dem party."

Agree with Julie, that it's extremely irritating to see a bunch of interlopers attempting to elbow their way in and co-opt feminism, redefining it to suit patriarchy's needs. I've even seen people who support patriarchal institutions like marriage, BDSM or the sex industry calling themselves radical feminists. There is so much misunderstanding and misinformation about feminism out there that people feel like they can grab what they like without making an actual political commitment or any kind of challenge to the patriarchy.

Really liberal feminism (the old kind, not the sex industry supporting kind) and radical feminism are the only kinds of feminism that have ever effected any kind of positive change for women. They need to be reclaimed and supported, not erased by third wave non-feminist feminism.

She's right about the lib dems too. :D Or maybe they are in the same boat and need some classic liberals to reclaim their party from the Tory party's whipping boys.

OP posts:
Original poster
Nyac · 09/05/2012 21:28

I don't think there's anything wrong with the writing, I think wittering on about it is a bit of a distraction really. I mean who cares? As I said it's the political points she's making that are what are important. I'm sure JB would rather be remembered for what she said and did than how she said it. There are plenty of stylish writers out there with terrible misogynistic politics.

What someone is saying is more important than how they say it. I realise that that's not an idea that sits well with many here, but from a political point of view it's true.

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EclecticShock · 09/05/2012 21:29

I'm so confused hmm, I don't even know if you're being sarcastic blush

LRDtheFeministDragon · 09/05/2012 21:31

I don't know, catgirl - I thought she was pretty clear, but I do see what you're saying that it would also be good to see articles defining different feminist movements and talking more about the same issues.

There are a fair few links to such articles and books in this section - shall I dig some out?

I think it's fair to remember that although she's not writing in a specialist feminist context, lots of papers have sections on special interests. I am not all that clued up on cars, but if you read a car column in a national paper, it won't stop to explain what is a 'good' time to go 1-60, or what torque means. It'll assume you know. I think that it is fair to assume a certain level of knowledge and/or ability to google?

Original poster
Nyac · 09/05/2012 21:31

I know of people who have turned away from feminism because they thought that all it had to offer them was empowerment through pole-dancing or wearing lipstick. The fun fems have offered an image of feminsim (the unchallenging kind) which the media have lapped up - hence the massive coverage of slutwalks, compared to the complete radio silence on Take Back the Night or Million Women Rise. They have distorted our movement, and it's time to get it back.

OP posts:
EclecticShock · 09/05/2012 21:32

So now, I can't direct my posts at one person, as that's personal attack, but I can't direct it at "some people" as that's not acceptable either. I get the impression I'm not allowed to lost at all because I have strong views. However, other people with strong views can post?

LRDtheFeministDragon · 09/05/2012 21:33

eclectic - I agree being rude is subjective ... but that, I would imagine, is why MNHQ felt the need to explain that lots of people found you rude.

minimathsmouse · 09/05/2012 21:35

We have moved from competitive feminism to competitive "I have a better education" and could write this standing on my head, so dismiss dismiss dismiss. Is that the same way in which middle class liberals dismiss the disadvantaged or those who end up working in the sex industry or getting into BDSM and concede they are just a little bargain to be had with the patriarchy, a way of protecting your own freedoms.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 09/05/2012 21:36

Cross-posted.

Eclectic, you are not allowed to post personal attacks on this site. To be honest, if your are trying to say that the only argument you can think of is a personal attack ... why bother?

It would be better to engage with the arguments people post, no?

EclecticShock · 09/05/2012 21:37

So have I misunderstood that this board is open to all
people? Even if it's only open to feminists, I would count myself as believing in equality for men and women. Or do I have to be assessed by the people already on this board and accepted or rejected as they see fit?

scottishmummy · 09/05/2012 21:37

a more global feminism turn off expressed on mn is the stridency and radical pov.it can be very didactic. there have been numerous mn threads that many find the fem topics too shouty,too much name calling

EclecticShock · 09/05/2012 21:40

As far as I can see, I'm engaging. Engaging doesn't mean agreeing. It means listening and thinking through other pooled arguments. I didn't know anything about rad fem until this week. I have read and sought to understood viewpoints, even through outside sources. Do how am I not engaging?

minimathsmouse · 09/05/2012 21:41

Electic, its a two way dialectical process, if you read back over the thread, go away do some more reading, do some more thinking, hey that's what it's all about. I don't know how others feel but it's fine to be challenged and that can change peoples opinions, I've listened to what you have said and whilst I disagree I will still respect and I will reflect on what others have said (can't speak for others)! but personal attacks are not on.

bruxeur · 09/05/2012 21:42

Not entirely sure that Nyac is Turing +ve.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 09/05/2012 21:45

eclectic - I think you're misunderstood the whole site, to be honest! On MN in general personal attacks are not allowed.

It's nothing special about this section, I'm afraid - it's just one of the (few) rules in place.

scottishmummy · 09/05/2012 21:47

you're not a moderator lrd
if posters at fault no doubt mnhq will illuminate

EclecticShock · 09/05/2012 21:48

Ok, so what constituted a personal attack?

AbigailAdams · 09/05/2012 21:50

Ask MNHQ Eclectic. They are the ones who deleted your posts. It isn't rocket science. But it is pretty tedious now.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 09/05/2012 21:51

Oh, shit, you're right scottishmummy! Shock

I almost forgot that 'talk guidelines' are only accessible to moderators, instead of being available to all of us here: www.mumsnet.com/info/netiquette

Blush

What an idiot, eh?

And as well, it's like I had this strange out of body experience where a poster actually asked us to offer opinions on whether or not she was being rude - and I replied to her.

God, I am ashamed now. Blush

Portofino · 09/05/2012 21:51

Eclectic, I used to come on here and be narky too. But there are some fantastic posters and a huge pool of knowledge here. Fine to challenge, but you have to LISTEN to what is being said. If you post rubbish, people WILL pull you on it. Treat it as a vigorous learning experience.

bruxeur · 09/05/2012 21:52

Getting a bit 6th form now, really?

scottishmummy · 09/05/2012 21:58

what a lot of inane she said,issue, oi you're rude
oh and the humph facesBlushAngry
it's this very squabbling,accusations of trolling that makes fem topics so tiresome at times.and then people list in threads they dislike the petty squabbling,name calling, and aggro

Original poster
Nyac · 09/05/2012 21:58

Eclectic, these were your first posts on this thread. They had nothing to do with engaging with topic, although they do seem to show a pattern in your modus operandi:

(I know I get criticised for C&Ping, but it can be so enlightening)

"I'm new to this section of mn. I find it patronising that it seems some people on this board think that those that don't agree with them just haven't seen the light yet. It's like talking to a born again Christian. Radical feminism has really put me off this board to be honest.

In fact, having read a few threads on this board, it generally smacks of female supremacy. This is not what I expected from feminism. I respected feminism but I was obviously very naive about the more fundamentalist side to it. I expect to be ignored as that's what seems to happen as people who disagree are seen as trouble makers or trolls. Or maybe you'll respond as you pity me being under the control of the patriarchal viewpoint. What a load of rubbish. Extremists are not healthy when they are dismissive of equality, the one thing they purport to seek. It's shame this board doesn't discuss topics which are actually useful in building a cohesive equality based society. What is wrong with the concept of humanism?

Are any of the radical feminists on here, actually successfully integrating into male dominated professions?

Such psychological bullshit, pardon my expression. Do you really think you can win hearts and minds with this approach. It's akin to brainwashing IMO.

Actually, I correct myself. You will win hearts and minds... Of the vulnerable.

How did you find that seahouses? How did you become successful and juggle your radical feminism... If indeed you are a radical feminist.

Too many questions to answer. For example I have seen that some people on this board get very annoyed when men are mentioned on topics relating to rape or fenital mutilation. Why? It's something that affects everyone not just women.

Seriously, radical feminism ( not feminism), is completely unscientific with no evidence and it reminds me of religion. Believe an ask no questions... What purpose does it serve other than to control? Does it actually help anyone in a practical sense?"

And so on, then you started to get deleted when you got really rude.

OP posts:
Original poster
Nyac · 09/05/2012 22:00

The thread has been derailed yet again though. There's always more excitement in bashing than there is in talking about things.

Especially when it's something that is worth challenging like the sex positive anti-feminist attempted takeover of feminism.

OP posts:
scottishmummy · 09/05/2012 22:00

enlightening to c&p
nah its online countering
except you can c&p endless prose, as if ta dah

Original poster
Nyac · 09/05/2012 22:02

I do disagree ScottishMummy!

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