New Trans thread as requested by HQs.

[oilfilledlamp]

Please forgive the intrusion but I've been out tonight and only recently got back. I wanted to respond to MadWomanintheattic earlier when she posted

"If I were an mtf trans (pre op or post op) the last place I'd want to fetch up is in a women's refuge, because of the potential for making other people feel ill at ease. But nothing is clear cut, really.

How often does this happen, really? Has there been any research into prevalence and motivation?

hully - dunno, I'm not a MtF who feels that, so I can't really comment. I hope not, though. I'm not really keen on assigning labels to other people at all.

I think it is ridiculous to say that "male" and "female" are just labels.

The entire natural world is divided into male and female, there are clear characteristics that distinguish the male from the female humans and any other species.

If a human skeleton is exhumed after 1000s of years, it can be determined whether it was a male or female.

To acknowledge a difference does not imply the acceptance of any theory saying one is better than the other, which is a ridiculous argument in itself. Male and Female are obviously equally important/valid/necessary.

To say that there is no significant biological difference, and it is all just labels put on people by a bigoted society is disingenuous or even naive.

It is like saying we all have the same skin colour. No we don't. However, obviously, skin colour is not important, and one colour is not superior to another. We do not need to say that no difference in skin colour exists to come to this conclusion.

To me it feels wrong to have to call a man with his penis taken off a "female", as to me, being a female does not equal man minus penis.

Maybe transgender patients should be seen as a "third sex" ? Or just be officially the sex they ARE (and which is unchangeable) but be allowed to call themselves Ms. in their lives.

If a friend would prefer me to call him "her" from now on, with or without operation, I would oblige. And I have no trouble with transsexuals using women's toilets, (but I would have no trouble with men using women's toilets either. I don't really see why men's and women's toilets should be separated anyway, after all, you lock yourself into an individual cubicle for the bit where you pull your pants down anyway.)

As it stands though, in the UK, and under UK law as elucidated in the Gender Recognition Act 2004, a transgendered individual who has been issued with a GRC is legally the "new" sex. And should be treated as such.

hathor - I've just seen your post about your rape. I'm so sorry to hear that. Hope you are ok.

For what it's worth, I shared part of my morning bus journey today with a trans woman, not a good friend but a fairly close acquaintance, a caring, loving, kind person. I know about the struggles she has faced, the abuse she has experienced, but she isn't bitter, angry or hate-filled. We had a pleasant chat and she admired my knitting. She was just like any other pensioner heading for the spin cycling class at the gym. She's lovely.

I can't explain the feeling in my gut when I feel I'm being pressed to regard her and other trans people I've known and those I don't know as at best, delusional and misguided and at worst, dangerous and predatory. Minimising, denying, blaming, I've seen these tactics used before in other contexts, against other human beings. I can't accept it is somehow "acceptable" in one but deplorable in the other.

This is one aspect of some strands of feminism that I will never get, never be convinced by and always see as hypocritical I'm afraid. And, I'm not so green as cabbage looking.

I'm fine LRD apart from feeling a little patronised. I don't talk about it, not because I'm scared to but because it doesn't define me and it just isn't an issue.

But the point I'm trying to make is that my views make feminists uncomfortable (or at least I think they do). They're trying to lump me into a collective notion I don't want to be a part of.

So who's right? Whose views take priority?

yy Kritiq and SGM

I'm really sorry. I didn't mean to patronize you at all. Of course it doesn't define you. I just thought I should acknowledge your post, but I apologize if I got that wrong.

Oh not you LRD - sorry - just from some of the comments on the other thread.

SGM - absolutely agree.

Btw, this is why I am fairly cynical about stuff like the terminology. People who're not transsexuals seem to fall over their feet to insist we use the term 'cis woman'. Newspapers love to print stuff about the horrors of being/being married to/finding your child is transsexual. This stuff is all quite obviously intended to stir up aggro, not solve it.

I always find the post-acknowledging thing difficult - never sure if it's the right thing to do! (tangent)

So, my friend.

Is a transgendered pre-op MtF.

Some would say she can't go into the ladies loos.

She shouldn't use the disabled loos.

And to send her to the male loos will make men uncomfortable.

Where should she go to pee?

(And I'm being a little flippant, but at the same time it's a serious issue)

men's loos are vile and smelly. I'd go to the ladies

I think she should go to the ladies loos hathor. I expect at the swimming pool she might want to change in a cubicle, presumably in the ladies.

Agree with SGM and KRITIQ's posts.

Seriously though.

If she can't go to the ladies because it might upset some women and be triggering.

And she can't go to the mens because it might upset the men.

And she can't go to the disabled because she's not disabled.

And if we give equal weight, as we should to the views of men and women.

Where the hell does she go to pee?

But some posts have said that women who have been raped or assaulted feel triggered and threatened by the presence of a transgendered individual in the ladies changing areas.

''I'm a feminist, but I'm not as single minded. If there's more than one oppressed group involved, be they women, trans, disabled, whatever, then I have to try and seek the balance. It shouldn't be necessary to pit one against another or come up with a hierarchy of vulnerability.''

Rarely post here as I suspect I'm likely to get eaten alive but I've been lurking on recent threads and, Mad, I agree with this part of your post wholeheartedly.

I don't share your sneaking appreciation for radical feminists though.

Judging by the views on this thread, 'radical' seems to be interchangeable with extremist or fundamentalist which, imo, is rarely a good thing whatever it's applied to, whether that be religion, politics or feminism. Life cannot be reduced to simple black and white constructs as there are inevitably areas of grey, conflicts and wicked problems out there in the real world. Similar conflicts arise between, say religious freedoms and animal rights, or the cultural/feminist v religious issues around handshakes and veils. The challenge is to work out a sensitive balance between the conflicting principles. Pushing an extremist view at the expense of all other groups merely threatens to undermine the wider feminist movement.

Incidentally, I guess one of the many reasons I struggle to see an issue with the GRA is that it provides equal freedom and recognition to FtM trans gender people. So the definition of man has changed just as much as the definition of woman.

We should have unisex loos with locks on each door. Simple.

Why assume the person has to fit with society? Why not change society? This is a perfect case in point.

If I am completely honest I would be ASTONISHED if I was in the open ladies' changing area and a woman came in and stripped off and had dangly bits.

I don't believe they would do that, who would want all the ag? Excpet maybe one mad activist (there's always one). So I think it's probs a non-issue.

How are they going to know hathor?

Also, and this is me playing devils advocate.

If there is a MtF transgendered individual in the changing room. And you don't know they are, because they don't have a sign round their neck. But you feel triggered by their presence. So they have to leave. Presumably because they look a bit too male for you to be comfortable.

What about women born women (hate that phrase) who just look masculine? Would they be banned too? In the interests of protecting the triggered?

That's my point DH.

X-posts.