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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

New Trans thread as requested by HQs.

605 replies

oilfilledlamp · 17/04/2012 22:49

Please forgive the intrusion but I've been out tonight and only recently got back. I wanted to respond to MadWomanintheattic earlier when she posted

"If I were an mtf trans (pre op or post op) the last place I'd want to fetch up is in a women's refuge, because of the potential for making other people feel ill at ease. But nothing is clear cut, really.

How often does this happen, really? Has there been any research into prevalence and motivation?

OP posts:
AlexanderSkarsgardIWould · 18/04/2012 09:42

The correct term for people whose bodies and personal identity match the gender they were assigned at birth is, by the way, cisgender.

Hullygully · 18/04/2012 09:45

I was interested in the broader ideas beyond the mtf .v. women-only stuff so I have started a thread about that if anyone is vaguely interested.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 18/04/2012 09:54

What worries me about all this is, who is suffering here, and to whose advantage is all this?

I don't know anyone transsexual well enough for them to have told me much about it. I do worry, though, because I know a lot of people who are quite convinced that surgery is excellent and functional and simple. They believe that - sad though it must be to be 'born into the wrong body', the process is simple. They believe, because we are quite often told this, that there are distinctive, physical and mental qualities that define women or men.

There are, obviously: there are chromosomes and there are hormones and there are reproductive organs. All of these may function to a greater or lesser extent in an individual. For reasons I find dubious, all of these are discounted as definitive of femaleness or maleness. So, they say, there must be something else.

Is it then social or cultural - the experience of having lived as a female or male and been recognized as female or male? No, apparently that will not do either. Why?

Now, if someone believes there is 'something else', some distinctive quality that makes them identify as the opposite sex, I can't really deny their feelings and I'm not sure I'd want to. What worries me is, why are we throwing out all the other ways of defining 'woman' at the same time? Why is it that I am no longer supposed to say, well, I define myself as a woman because I am XX, or because I have a female reproductive system, or because I have lived my whole life labeled as 'female' in a society that cares hugely about this label?

So that's my first problem. I would be told by people I know this is 'cis privilege', that I am a 'cis woman', not a 'woman'. Why on earth would someone who wants to live as the opposite sex thank their activists for spreading terminology that sets the differences in concrete: 'trans woman' and 'cis woman'. Why? I am a cynic, but I can't believe this terminology is anything but stupid. It has no positive implications for anyone.

Anyway. When I've worried about definitions and words, someone will say it's easy to have surgery. But it's not, is it? And who does it help, to spread that lie? I don't have an argument with people doing what they like with their bodies, but it is utterly ridiculous to pretend that, in the current situation, someone who has gender reassignment surgery now has 'a woman's body' or 'a man's body'. I really hope they have a body they find more liveable with, but that's not the only issue.

Is it not problematic to say that something is deemed a successful replacement for a vagina just because it can be penetrated? Isn't saying that that is a vagina immensely disrespectful, not only to people with vaginas but also to the person who has surgery, who is being told this is what they get, this is how to make them feel like a woman?

If I knew someone were MtF transsexual, or FtoM, I would call them 'she' and 'he' respectively - because they're individuals and I think they're caught up in the same sorry mess we all are, and it's not a competition to see who's worst off. If I knew someone who was an orthodox Jew and didn't want to touch me, I wouldn't touch him. Same reasons. I know lots of women who wear coverings and I don't go round snatching them off.

Accepting individuals and accommodating their beliefs, even if I find the underlying premises of those beliefs insulting to me as a feminist, seems basic to me. But that doesn't mean that I don't get to disagree with these premises on a general level. Seeing this debate get shut down time after time (not just on MN), especially by people who seem to want to support a situation that benefits none of us, is misguided and I think this attitude will stop us as a society from making any progress with any side of the issue.

Hullygully · 18/04/2012 09:57

I agree with most of what you say LRD - but come to the opposite conclusion! All of the discussion is necessary to try and get to a happy place for all, imo.

MooBaaWoofCheep · 18/04/2012 10:00

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 18/04/2012 10:00

What - that you think it's ok to object to individuals but not to a practice? Confused

Why, hully?

hathorkicksass · 18/04/2012 10:01

I do know a transgendered person. She is MtF. She would be mortified beyond belief if she thought for one second that her being anywhere would be upsetting anyone.

I think there are extremes in every viewpoint, there's always an outrageous case and it's the "hard cases" that make for difficult discussions.

I could find outrageous cases that don't fit the legal norms on discrimination, on compensation in a tort case, on medical negligence, on adverse possession of land, if you want to look at the problematic Pye case, on any of a number of things.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 18/04/2012 10:02

moo, forgive me, but that makes bugger all sense. One might as well say 'well, you are the lesbian, you are the one with the 'problem', so kindly redefine your world view and we'll have no more of this gay rights nonsense'. Indeed, your argument could apply equally to either the trans or the radfem side of this argument.

StewieGriffinsMom · 18/04/2012 10:08

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MooBaaWoofCheep · 18/04/2012 10:11

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Hullygully · 18/04/2012 10:13

Surely "cis" is only used in discussing/debating the whole trans issue? So that if someone was discussing issues with a trans mtf who wanted to be called "woman," and was very aware of incorrect gender birth assignment, one might use "cis"?

Surely no one is suggesting it be used in general parlance?

KRITIQ · 18/04/2012 10:14

I understand what Moo is saying. Let's imagine that I'm a Catholic and I've been brought up with the church's teaching that abortion is murder and is a sin. I would never have an abortion and I wish other people never had abortions. But, I don't believe I have the right to stop other people having abortions because I personally don't agree with the choices they make.

I worry that some feminists try very hard to push the belief that by their very existence, trans people are a danger to women. It's hogwash, just the same as it is when homophobes insist that gay men are a threat to straight men or MRAs insist that violent women and women who lie about rape are a threat to men.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 18/04/2012 10:15

Moo, that would be clear (in fact, it's what I said, although I know it was a long post and you may have flagged before the end). But, of course, being a 'cis woman' isn't any trans person's 'choice', is it? It's a label that keeps being pushed at me.

Like SGM, I find 'cis woman' offensive as a term.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 18/04/2012 10:17

hully - oh, I wish! Grin

I admit, I have some very sweet, very right-on friends. The irony being they know very, very little about any of these issues.

They do routinely use 'cis woman'. They have noticed my catsbum face but haven't quite worked out why.

hathorkicksass · 18/04/2012 10:17

I have another thread in feminism going. I'm going to bring an anecdote from it over here.

I was raped by my ex. And beaten. I do not view that as a feminist issue - I just don't. I've been told I fit a group and am part of the "sisterhood" whether I like it or not.

So, is the onus on me to change my personal feelings about what happened to me, or is the onus on the other person to change and be accepting and tolerant of the fact that that is how I feel even if it doesn't square with what they think and it makes them uncomfortable?

Because that to me smells of denying my feelings about my experience.

Hullygully · 18/04/2012 10:17

But who uses cis other than mtf trans?

And they would, wouldn't they? Cos they'd have to.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 18/04/2012 10:18

Kri - but that only works so long as the Catholic Church is not in a position to agitate or legislate about your right to abortion, surely?

Hullygully · 18/04/2012 10:18

lrd - cross post.

REALLY? Wow. I have never ever heard anyone use "cis." Is it a generational thing? (old)

hathorkicksass · 18/04/2012 10:19

I have never heard anyone use "cis" in RL either Hully. I must be old as well I know I am

LRDtheFeministDragon · 18/04/2012 10:19

hully - why, though? I get why some tabloid journalist would need to use it, or why a medic would need to. But surely if you want to be a woman, you'd want to say you're a woman? Confused

I really don't get it.

Hullygully · 18/04/2012 10:20

cis in general parlance and not specifically related to trans issues is a nonsense.

bruxeur · 18/04/2012 10:20

I thought dittany had been banned?

hathorkicksass · 18/04/2012 10:21

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Hullygully · 18/04/2012 10:23

I mean, lrd, that if you were a mtf trans who felt that your gender had been incorrectly assigned at birth (surely the nub), then you would feel perfectly justified in coming up with a term for those lucky enough to have been correctly assigned in the first place.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 18/04/2012 10:23

hully - sorry, we're cross posting, I'll shut up in a minute.

I am sure it is a generation thing. I think mainly it's a problem - which dogs this whole issue - of people who have no vested interests thinking what they can really do to help is wade in and start laying down the law.

I'm sure this is not a new problem, I'm sure people have been jumping on bandwagons for centuries, but I think it is quite a big issue here, because (as I said) I think a lot of people have accepted without question the idea that changing sex is really very simple, very unproblematic, and an important 'cause' to support. This just strikes me as immensely unhelpful.

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