New Trans thread as requested by HQs.

[oilfilledlamp]

Please forgive the intrusion but I've been out tonight and only recently got back. I wanted to respond to MadWomanintheattic earlier when she posted

"If I were an mtf trans (pre op or post op) the last place I'd want to fetch up is in a women's refuge, because of the potential for making other people feel ill at ease. But nothing is clear cut, really.

How often does this happen, really? Has there been any research into prevalence and motivation?

Well, I do think that if you arrive in a new space with an existing culture you should make an effort to integrate at least a bit, rather than just throwing g your weight around right away. If some are doing that I can see why it might put people's backs up. Sorry if the analogy's not to your taste though.

I find the whole thing fascinating. I'm of the opinion that such transactivists as you have encountered act the way they do because of the casual discrimination they face in every other area of their lives, so everything becomes a target for recognition of their equality. (not sure I'm making much sense) so, if there wasn't violence against women by men, rad fems wouldn't spend their lives in pursuit of ending that.

In some randomly utopian vision of the future, men wouldn't beat up women or trans, or rape anyone, and trans would be accepted as valid human beings. And I don't think anyone would particularly care about shared experience groups. Because they would be valued as individuals by society.

But in this non utopian present, everyone is frankly fighting for their right to be recognised of equal importance. And so we end up pitted against each other.

I am aware of the irony that removing gender boundaries is as extreme as either the rad fem or transactivist stance btw. in a utopian conference, the mtf trans would sit nicely alongside the born men and women, and FTP trans, and discuss reproductive health nicely as it affects all of them. No weird priorities and rules as to who is allowed to discuss what. And the born women's voices would be heard in equal measure to the born men. and the mtf and ftm voices heard. No one shouted down, no one ridiculed, and no need for anyone to be triggered by anything.

Not in my lifetime, I suspect...

I'm still kinda baffled that the utopian vision on mn is of extra segregation and treatment by gender and not less though.

Some people's behaviour is abhorrent and not conducive to PARD, whatever their birth or identified gender.

Hmmmmmm, so, actually, the real concern is not mtf trans being present and it being a born woman only space, it is their behaviour and inability to recognise that everyone deserves to be heard, and to have their issues discussed.

Would trans be such an issue for rad fems if they shut up and listened?

I am off it now, but will check back later.

For goodness sake all I'm asking for is that if a child choses pink shoes. they want pink shoes and you should go for that. And ignore the comments if the child in question is perceived as male. A child who is perceived as female is not subjected to the same questioning if they request blue shoes

What does that say about society?

I see what it says about society now, but it still shocks me. There was much less of this gendering of children malarkey when I were a lass. Waste o' time, I tell 'ee! Sometimes I think we're going backards as much as forrards. Nowt wrong wi' rainbow dungarees for boys and girls, elves and pixies, black, brown or beige. Practical for the tree climbing, see.

While fondly taking the piss out of myself, I'm considering that gender fluidity was actually fashionable as well as 'right-on' ('PC' not having been invented) in the 70s and 80s. Broadly speaking. I wonder whether attitudes on this thread could be divided between those whose formative years were in the 70s and others?

Just an idle thought, btw, not a 'point'.

I blame David Bowie.

Sorry garlic and hully , you point being is what exactly? Apart from Northern bias and genderqueer bias

Isn't David from sarf Lonnon?

I don't have a point, btw.

Just a wee jokette

Sorry garlic and hully , you point being is what exactly? Apart from Northern bias and genderqueer bias

um

as before

You aren't trying to pick a fight are you scratch?

It seems repetition is necessary, scratchy.

Garlic, last post, 20:46: Just an idle thought, btw, not a 'point'.

I reserve my right to think on screen

Hully

uAnd it isn't witty either. You are not being urbane, thoughtful, respectful of others.

Never mind I'll never report this post, it's civilised and thoughtful. It's ace. Yozzza.

Blimey!

Hiding thread now. Launch incomprehensibly random attacks at yourself, scratch.

garlic. I love the smell of garlic in the morning, noon, night. Wonderful name.

I've got myself some garlic chives which I'm looking forward to eating from my home plot. As well as the glut of garlic I produce each year, that others are grateful for.

Hey listen girls, we can all be respectful of others, we can all see each others viewpoint.

yes dear

righty-oh lovely

Apols for completely not getting the boys in pink shoes going to guides point.

Clearly (I think) you are saying that boys in pink shoes and going to guides should be fine, but it is not? Because society delineates by gender? And more so if you happen to be male?

I don't think that's especially true, tbh, but it is in the pink or blue shoes instance. And the access to scouting or guiding instance. Girls in those two particular cases have way more choice available.

I don't think it holds true for most of the rest of life, but I'm not sure I'm up to a direct societal comparison of the freedom or strictures of masculinity versus femininity to work out who has it better or worse. Entirely subjective anyway.

But I do agree if what you meant was simply that gendering behaviour ( do I want to wear pink shoes) is wrong.

Given that I'm over 40, I know how much more gendered some aspects of society have become over the last 20-30 years, whilst theoretically society has become more equal.

But if we're just agreeing that gendering behaviour is wrong, then, um, yeah.

mad - i don't think you should take dear scratchy entirely at face value.

I think hully and mad need to calm down, 'dear'.

I put my girlies into brownies wearing jeans and a 't' shirt. They also had blue, heavens!, blue trainers.

How where they both not taken from me by social services? Thankful to have missed that. PHEW!