New Trans thread as requested by HQs.

[oilfilledlamp]

Please forgive the intrusion but I've been out tonight and only recently got back. I wanted to respond to MadWomanintheattic earlier when she posted

"If I were an mtf trans (pre op or post op) the last place I'd want to fetch up is in a women's refuge, because of the potential for making other people feel ill at ease. But nothing is clear cut, really.

How often does this happen, really? Has there been any research into prevalence and motivation?

Leith - Do you think feminists don't try to do that? A key part of feminism is challenging the idea of gender roles and trying to develop a more authentic personality. It is very hard to do and I don't think we can ever totally overcome our socialisation - although I promise you I will keep trying.

x-post with Leith making similar point.

I disagree that women should have to overcome socialisation so that they are happy to get changed and shower in front of men. And I think many many women would feel exactly the same.

Thanks for your reply, elephants. Hadn't thought about the gawping! I was there in a hen party and got thrown back into the reserved area for getting involved in a conversation with some of the regulars. It was as unpleasant as the time El Vino told me I had to ask a man to order my drinks! Now you've mentioned it I can see the rationale but it's still pretty offensive.

Oh, well, it hasn't changed my life

One of my friend's had Hank Wangford as her gynaecologist. That always struck me as kind of weird /off topic

I think we're going round in circles now - I don't know how we solve the problem of changing rooms but I don't think saying that women should get over themselves is very helpful nor is it likely to make women who feel uncomfortable getting naked in front of pre-op transpeople feel any less so.

Perhaps the Scandinavian way would be best to save all the argy bargy

'Gender' is a social construct. Changing gender is about conforming to society's idea of what a woman is - how she should look, speal, act etc.

I'd make an exception for Hank.

Dowager: I tend to agree we have come to a an impasse. So the defaukt will be that Mt F trans WILL use female toilets, go in to spaces that are female only, will in due course further challenge the orthodoxy of female only work places, and will in all likelihood succeed in being employed as women in that kind of setting. I am not some kind of fortune teller I am reflecting on the progress in all areas of human rights.

The question is, having had a chance to absorb and work with the challenges that are posed by this scenario, will those who just refused to deal with it for idealogical reasons continue to feel that they are being marginalised by another group of people?

Celestina, I think you may have hit on the nub of the issue!

You said,"I take your point about the parallels between white Britons and women, but I don't accept them. The first was/is the massively dominant and powerful group within society. Women aren't. . . . "

I agree that women aren't the most powerful and dominant group in society. However, some women ARE afforded more privileges than other women, or even other men who may be disadvantaged. And, I would argue that (and I'm braced for the slap,) women generally benefit from many privileges trans people don't enjoy, while trans people can be subject to many of the same disadvantages that women face (e.g. rape, sexual assault, sexual harassment, being sexually exploited, facing discrimination at work, etc.)

Feminists describe gender as a social construct and wish to see the abolition of the concepts of masculinity and femininity. I agree with this - these are subjective concepts in any case and used to exert conformity and control which specifically disadvantages women (not great for men either, but not quite in the same league.)

However, one might argue that the concept of patriarchal oppression - specifically that all women experience oppression in some form because they are female and all men enjoy the benefits of male privilege, whether they ask for this or not, is predicated on the existence of a gender binary!

So, if you introduce a group of people who don't fit neatly into the box of male or female, it upsets that apple cart, particularly where there is evidence that those that don't fit male or female are even more likely than women to suffer abuse, discrimination and exclusion because they don't fit anywhere within the gender binary - they are complete outlaws, transgressors, and therefore threatening to the identities of both men and women.

Is that perhaps where some of the hostility is coming from? Fear that recognition of trans people will undermine the whole concept of women being oppressed within patriarchy (if it's possible that another group may be even MORE systematically oppressed by it?)

garlicnutter - Also if lesbians who attend the bar have complained about straight women in hen parties gawking and laughing, it makes sense for the bar to exclude straight woman. It is just good business sense to make sure your regulars are happy. In the same way some restaurants may exclude young children as the trade they lose far outweighs the trade they keep.

And as you said it didn't really affect your life. To some lesbians attending that bar regularl,y having a place to go where they are not gawked at or laughed at and can feel free to kiss for example, may be incredibly important to their life.l

Kritiq - I don't think the fear comes from the idea of Trans people challenging feminism. But I don't totally understand where the fear does come from.

And I do think all woman are negatively affected by patriarchy, although some a lot lot less than others. I also think some men are negatively affected by the patriarchy, particularly those whose behaviour and personality doesn't fit neatly into proscribed gender roles.

From reading blogs/seeing tv shows etc it seems to me that many of those going through male to female change actively embrace the gender sterotype - they are taught to speak more quietly/softly, they wear make-up, they go for heels and skirts etc

Going back a bit now (been out) but on the women-only spaces bit:

another argument is that women behave (IME) very differently when men aren't around. They are franker, often dirtier, less conditionalised if that's a word - more themselves. And I think lots of women, if presented with a woman-only space that includes a MTF transwoman (of whom they were aware), would behave as though they were in a mixed-gender group - with all the attendant loss of freedom and unselfconsciousness that that implies.

Another, possibly idle question, to those who think this isn't an important issue: do MTF have any entitlements to support groups or spaces featuring only MTF transwomen? Or do you think that such a thing would be discriminatory, unnecessary and generally wrong?

'It only took about 5 years for communal changing to become the norm for women.' - I'd challenge this, garlic. I suspect that there any many women (like me) who loathe communal changing and rarely use public leisure centres, swimming pools or gyms for this very reason. All that's happened is that people like me have had to stay away unless dragged there by small children (when, for some reason, you become magically entitled to a cubicle again).

The fact that you as an individual think it is unproblematic doesn't mean that the problem goes away.

Yes Celestina. I hate communal changing

celestina - Yes I agree with that point on women only spaces. Many, although not all, do seek out woman only spaces at some time in their life. So it is clear that it is important for some women to be in only women's spaces.

And I think if MtoF pre and post op are allowed to use all women only changing rooms, showers, etc that more women will be driven away from using these facilities.

I think the problem here is that there isn't an easy solution that can satisfy everyone.

Narked, there is no option but to actively embrace it if you want the legal recognition.

Huge industry particularly for mtf, with schools and dressing agencies and speech modulation classes, movement classes, photographers, all designed to help you 'pass'.

My point is, seriously, how would you know?

I made it before, what's the difference if you're going to be "triggered" (which is really what it boils down to) between a MtF who looks too like a man and a woman who just happens to look masculine.

In a changing area for example.

And would you challenge someone and say "Excuse me are you a MtF transgendered person?"

And they were upset and driven out of the space. If they were. Or weren't.

hathor - I know some transgender people do look like the sex they adopt. But all the Trans MtoF I have had any contact with do not really look like woman. Of course I would be too polite to tell them this - but they have broad manly shoulders, or mens legs, etc.

And most MTOF do not have surgery on their genitals. Most still have a penis.

Well the MtoF transgendered lady I know looks like a woman. So maybe I am basing my experience too much on that.

But if they changed in a cubicle, how would you know?

Of course there will be some where I wouldn't know.

It's all frankly bizarre.

If you rubbish rape myths (it isn't because you wore a short skirt, got pissed, flashed your tits in abar, walked down a dark alley) and say you were unlucky because you had the misfortune to bump into a rapist, it isn't logical to then say 'oo, well, I don't want to share a changing room with either a man or a trans, because at one point or other they are / were in possession of a penis, which is inherently dangerous'.

A rapist is a rapist.

Of course, I'm not really advocating that we knock down all the walls and all get nekkid in one happy melee, because we have all been neatly brainwashed into this being a Bad Thing. But really, it all boils down to how you feel. Which happens to be the one thing that women are taking exception trans doing. trans apparently are supposed to quash their feelings. But women are allowed to feel a certain way, and expect validation for it.

Isn't all this resorting to feelings really playing into some sort of feminine stereotype anyway? And now we're doing it for our own gain? That isn't a real woman, so I don't care what s/he feels like. Only my feelings matter.

It's entirely circular.

I should add, I once mistook a woman for a man. And refused her services accordingly. Twice. (a credit card thing) so to say you'd be able to 'tell' is frankly daft.

Once I realised I had been a complete arse, we were quite good friends. It wasn't the first time it had happened to her, and I suspect it won't be the last.

Feel icky about the "look like a woman, look like a man" concept. Particularly the older women become, the less "obvious" it can be to others that they are female. Should they then feel obliged to adopt attributes that will signal they are women - but wouldn't these then be attributes of femininity, reflecting the gender binary? Isn't that also what trans people get caught up in - pressure to adopt attributes of the gender identity that may only be the least wrong of the two for them?

Yes, as a society I agree we should accept more than two sexes as "normal," but I think we are still a long way from that.

Absolutely right to feel icky in response to having to meet constructed definitions of appearance for anyone. And that absolutely is the way the trans legislation is constructed.