New Trans thread as requested by HQs.

[oilfilledlamp]

Please forgive the intrusion but I've been out tonight and only recently got back. I wanted to respond to MadWomanintheattic earlier when she posted

"If I were an mtf trans (pre op or post op) the last place I'd want to fetch up is in a women's refuge, because of the potential for making other people feel ill at ease. But nothing is clear cut, really.

How often does this happen, really? Has there been any research into prevalence and motivation?

Hathor I agree with that. If men don't want a FtM transgender person in communal male changing rooms, they should get the right to say no to. I have no idea though if that is how men would feel. Someone suggests upthread I think when men did object to this and if they did, thsi should be supported.

So where does the transgendered person go then?

Thanks KRITIQ - glad you're finding this thread less of a headfuck too!

I see what you're saying about Norway - but that's not my personal background or socialisation, nor is it the background or socialisation of most people (except in Norway ). The Scandinavian countries have an honourable recent history of according women real respect and power, too - meaning that women-only spaces are, perhaps, not such an emotive topic?

And I take your point about the parallels between white Britons and women, but I don't accept them. The first was/is the massively dominant and powerful group within society. Women aren't. Minorities and oppressed groups have a very real need to associate with other people who share, as closely as possible, their particular experiences of marginalisation and silencing. I've never had any objections to lesbian-only bars or the Black Police Association, for this reason.

hathor - I am not for a minute saying that Transgender people have it easy, they don't. But I also don't think to solve the problems they have, I should give up my right to the woman only space we have.

I know - and I understand what you're saying.

But then why should men give up men only spaces?

I am not saying they should hathor.

Whats the unease about trans being in womens or indeed womens only spaces?

what to people think they are going to do?

it sort of carries the assumption that because they were once men they are dodgy which carries the assumption then men by and large are dodgy ..

surely thats sexism??

That's my point Hoebag, you said that much better than me!

I am now going to contradict myself for the eleventh time.

I do understand the unease because, for eg, I don't like male doctors. I will not let a man examine my nethers and do think there is something wrong with male gynaecologists.

Ok now i love consensus and truly think that people need to look for commonalities rather than diffrences, that said I am going to attempt to counter the positive vibes that are breaking out on this thread by challenging the notion that we have a 3rd gender.

My 2 arguments are these:

1. We are not asking if the transgender want a 3rd gender imposed on them, nor are we thinking about those that would refuse to be a 3rd gender having spent years working towards becoming what ever gender they think/feel themselves to be. One reason that trans persons might not want a 3rd gender is that they want to fit in to the mainstream not become a subset of it. Like disabled people who want to be part of the mainstream and who do not want to be identified as different. The evidence is that people want to be publicly "invisible" so as to cause as little attention to be drawn to themselves as possible. Other lgbt groups and others strive for normalisation and acceptance not to be redefined all over again.

the notion that a 3rd gender space be set up to save women only spaces will just not fly as only the very brave would dare go in a public loo for trans people for fear of ridicule, abuse, or attack. So to put it bluntly we have not solved the "where do they pee" question.

1. Fundamentally the power of the minority group, or the group that is being eld down by society is in the strength they get from using there difference to highlight how unfair the status quo is. Women have used their gender extremely effectively to change society and to pull power out of the hands of the dominant patriarchy. But this power and the effectiveness of campaigns and politicle pressure would be diluted by the introduction of a 3rd gender and would then be subsequently more diluted the more genders and identites that we take on. now i am not saying that people cannot have more than one identity, a female parent is both and can interchange both. However if we are talking about equal pay for example that is a commonalty shared by women no matter what chromosomes they have or what bits they have/had.

Long I know sorry

I object to lesbian-only bars. It seems a tad peculiar that I should only be allowed to drink there if I might want to have sex with a woman.

I did bump against this once, by accident - I avoided the bar afterwards, but felt seriously affronted. They insisted the bar (which was labelled women-friendly, not lesbian) was not specifically a pick-up joint, but why then make me so unwelcome? In fact, if I accidentally went to a hetero sex place, I'd expect to be tolerated and I am tolerated in male and lgb gay bars.

I'm assuming I've missed a point. What is it?

gawd knows, garlic.

I fall over them as well as miss them all the time.

I do understand the unease because, for eg, I don't like male doctors. I will not let a man examine my nethers and do think there is something wrong with male gynaecologists.

you can't be serious

I agree with what you've just posted, Leith, but see most of the points on this thread as openings for discussion and potentially for changing of minds. Which is what we're here for, innit? Not to just say "Well, no clear answers so let's just shove this back in the 'difficult' box".

Hoebag - No it doesn't mean they are dodgy. Men and woman both can be dodgy. Women only space does not automatically mean that everyone will be nice and non threatening.

The point is:

1. Women (and men) are very heavily socialised as girls and teenagers to fit a societal definition of a woman. We may reject that, but it will still affect who we are and how we behave. Witness the struggle some women have to overcome socialisation that they should be nice all the time (and no I am not saying this applies to all women - some parts of socialisation will impact on each individual girl more than others, depending on our own unique background).

1. Part of that socialisation is to go to the toilet, undress and shower only in front of certain men e.g. partners or in front of woman - but not to in front of men we don't know. I think it is very unfair to expect woman to just ignore this socialisation and to say, well you may not feel happy getting undressed in front of someone with a male body, you need to get over it.

1. Because of socialisation, there are differences between how men and women behave in general. And remember in any women only space if we were to make it mixed we can't choose and pick what men we let in. So we can't say well he is pretty non sexist, so he can come in. We would have to let all men in.

So some women do want women only space to discuss issues of concern to them without having to let men in. For example, rape crisis, childhood sexual abuse, etc. I know not all women feel this way, but I think women should have a choice.

Hully.

When we both injure ourselves falling over points, I'll have a wider choice of doctors than you, so ner to your sexist gynae preferences.

I am, Hoe.

I feel that female nethers are women's business (women born or possibly made)

I had an unpleasant experience with a male doctor when I was 16 and the older I get the stronger the feeling grows.

Too strong for me to ignore.

But surely things like changing rooms have cubicles so no-one would feel threatened coz no-one can see anything??.

Not my local leisure centre. It has literally half a dozen cubicles. And they are teeny.

But isn't that tarring all men with the same brush?

I'm not sure how many blokes would go through years of med school, rack up a huge debt so they could get some wierd kick out of womens bits??.

So do you think women should stay away from professions that would involve the intimate examination of a male?.

I know, Hoe

I didn't say it was reasonable or fair.

Btw, a medic friend told me years ago that the reason men go in for gynae is because it's much less competitive and easier to do better professionally.

That put me off too.

"I object to lesbian-only bars. It seems a tad peculiar that I should only be allowed to drink there if I might want to have sex with a woman."

It hard to know why this is as we are guessing why the bar made that choice. Perhaps they have had lots of hen parties going and being disrespectful to lesbians there? I know that Canal Street is a common place for hen parties to go to for example and I did read in a Sunday newspaper I think? an article investigating this and gay people were complaining about being gawked at and laughed at like specimens.

A worker is never going to say to you, you can't come in because we have had lots of problems with straight people being disrespectful as that is just inviting an argument back along the lines of - well I wouldn't, what are you accusing me of, etc. So I guess it vwould just be easier to say it is a lesbian only bar.

Elephant you are talking about socalisation which comes down to learnt behaviour. A radicle answer would be to unlearn that behaviour. In the same way that the learnt behaviour to think of black people as less human than white.

Hoebag at all my local council leisure centres we have communal changing rooms and some of them still only have communal showers. Anyone who is shy gets chnaged in the toilets. So no.

Elephants, what you say about changing rooms in point 2 is no different from the initial outcry against communal changing. You might not remember it. Everybody (women) said the same as you just have, about not changing in front of other women.

I'm afraid I say get over it.

Obv, there will be people whose earlier traumatic experiences and/or body issues make it seriously awful for them to be naked amongst others. For them, we have a range of half-baked concessions such as curtains and disabled rooms, etc. But I feel you're in error to make this a general truth. Socialisation can be overcome. It only took about 5 years for communal changing to become the norm for women.