New Trans thread as requested by HQs.

[oilfilledlamp]

Please forgive the intrusion but I've been out tonight and only recently got back. I wanted to respond to MadWomanintheattic earlier when she posted

"If I were an mtf trans (pre op or post op) the last place I'd want to fetch up is in a women's refuge, because of the potential for making other people feel ill at ease. But nothing is clear cut, really.

How often does this happen, really? Has there been any research into prevalence and motivation?

Madwoman, my DFiL has often been mistaken for a woman. He's got a full head of hair, is fairly short, tends to wear tee shirts or jumpers and jeans or chinos and usually carries a bag. When this happens, other people are mortified, as if it's the worse possible thing you could do to a man. He thinks it's hilarious.

madwoman: I think there are quite a lot of arguments for women-only spaces that are nothing to do with potential sexual aggression. I've made a few on this thread

Anyway, I think Mumsnet is close to agreeing that what's really necessary is the wholesale destruction of the gender binary. Which is nice.

He's obviously very content with who he is.

I was mortified. I'd just spent the weekend chatting to a trans friend about the whole gender thing, and was appalled that I'd been caught out by something so utterly meaningless as short hair, skinny frame, and men's clothes to denote absolute gender. Particularly as the clothing was a uniform anyway, so it wasn't any deliberate gender play on her part.

And the fact that I did it so absolutely casually, so absolutely convinced that I was right because she didn't look like a woman, (twice) horrified me. But it does show how as a society we are so bent up about assigning people to wee boxes.

The shared experience thing? . That would still be available on a personal level, I think. That's what friendship is about, doesn't matter if it's gendered or not. No one would legislate on your personal conversations with your friends, or your personal choice of counsellor or doctor.

KRITIQ - my intuition is similar. Not all feminists subscribe to the idea of the patriarchy, but in order to base your analysis of women's position on this notion you need to have an even more fundamental notion of there being a concrete and pretty immutable difference between men and women.

So someone that claims gender is quite fluid, and they feel their body is quite at odds with their gender identification, is making a statement that undermines a concept that's fundamental to some (if not all) kinds of feminism. People tend to get angry and defensive (often while denying that they are doing so) when someone makes a suggestion that undermines the foundations of their conceptual framework.

I think that's mixed in, in some cases, with a basic, strong and hostile reaction to the idea that a penis might be introduced into an all-female environment. If this notional penis is being introduced by a transgender activist it then acquires a sense of being 'forced' in. For some, I wonder if this idea somehow connotes or evokes the idea (or even memories) of rape. The likelihood that for some at least this is about penises, not sex reassignment as such, is reinforced by the relative indifference throughout most of the discussion to the experiences of FTM transsexuals.

It's pretty emotive stuff. The problem is that making it about penises reduces each MTF to her (possibly still extant) penis, which is pretty dehumanising. I'm not sure what the solution is beyond trying to be courteous on a case by case basis, though.

'concrete and pretty immutable difference between men and women' - I'd put it another way: that growing up as a girl and becoming an adult woman is a distinct experience, and deserves be be recognised as such and have its own terminology. It is not the 'same' as growing up a transgirl and becoming a transwoman. Neither is in any way better than the other, but they. Are. Not. The. Same. So what's the big objection to giving those experiences their own language, rather than appropriating someone else's?

'No one would legislate on your personal conversations with your friends, or your personal choice of counsellor or doctor.' No, but from what was said over the weekend about the Equalities Act, plenty of local services (book clubs, rape crisis centres, ladies' night at the local) can now be prosecuted if they provide this sort of born-woman-only space.

But huge men can get pretty vicious and show fear and rage around trans people. I personally have seen it in men much more than women. But I don't really understand what is behind that rage. Is it for example that they are choosing not to identify as men any more and thus seen as rejecting men?

Could bew rong, just thinking aloud.

But girls grow up very differently too.

I was thought a boy until I was 13 (short, skinny, short hair, bejeaned) and was treated by the world as such.

I have never much liked being a "woman." My then best friend, on the other hand, couldn't wait for breasts and periods and all the other stuff and wore make-up etc. So she was treated differently and had a very different experience.

I don't think there is anything universal in the experience of growing up inside a nominally female shell.

Well, I'd say it was bog standard recognition of the 'other'. Women are actually better off than trans in this respect, because their 'other' in the views of potentially men is at least a recognised space. Someone who identifies as trans is a threat to the binary nature of the patriarchy by their very existence. So deserves to get beaten up, raped, whatever. More so than a woman.

That's not to say that all human beings with a penis beat up women or trans, but the ones that feel strongly about their position and the threat to the 'natural' order...

Elephant - your point at 18:10:07 is very valid. I've witnessed the greatest hostility towards trans people and even towards those who identify as men but are perceived as being effeminate, amongst men. In my view, it's an adjunct to misogyny. As you say, they despise women, and they equally or even more viciously despise men who seek to be like or actually become women. That means they are choosing to become part of the already hated group. They also serve as a reminder that maleness and masculinity aren't immutable. It's the, "well if that dude can become a laydeeee, will others think I might do that to? aaaaaaaarrrrrrgggggghhhhh" sort of thinking.

Celestina, I agree that there may be some types of experience that girls uniquely share, being born as and identified as female and growing up within a sexist culture and society. But, there will also be some girls and women who share experiences of growing up in a racist, classist and disablist society (for example) with boys and men, too. The affinity and bonds between people from those experiences are equally valid, imho.

However, there can also be an overlap in experiences - say a girl who has experienced sexual bullying and a trans girl who has also experienced sexual bullying.

And, of course there can be varied experiences even within a group of women. Teen mothers say the often feel marginalised and patronised within antenatal groups where most of the parents are older and often from more privileged backgrounds. Many Black women have felt silenced and excluded within feminist groups where the intersectionality of their oppression hasn't been recognised or valued.

I suppose I'm arguing that there may need to be a blend of spaces specifically for people who share common identities, but that may not be the "right thing" in all circumstances. And, it's dangerous to assume that just regarding something as "women only" will be sufficient to make it fully inclusive of all women, or that there still won't be hierarchies of privilege and disadvantage within those groups, whether explicit and whether or not its acknowledged.

(bit of a ramble that - off to the gym now!)

I've posted this on the other thread too as this story fascinates me

I understand that some people believe that gender is due to socialisation and not an inherrant (sp?) feeling we have that makes us identify as female or male

But what about the case of David Reimer. He was reassigned from male to female after a circumcision that went wrong as a baby. Raised as a girl, given hormones to grow breasts at puberty age, had his testes removed but never felt like a girl. He went back to living as a man but his life was ruined

If gender is a social construct, why did this man's maleness come through and why couldn't he be reassigned successfully?

Celestina, yy. But really, I don't see the need for women only book clubs. I've been in a lot of them. We talk about wimmin's things and periods and childbirth and whatnot. They aren't women only book clubs, and if a bloke came along he would be allowed in. In fact, we have had blokes in occasionally. It was really interesting, a total eye opener, and I wish they'd come more often. Mostly they run screaming in the opposite direction because the idea of sitting in a room with a gaggle of educated women discussing how their gender has impacted on a particular social example is terrifying. Really great if they stay and take part though. Leads to much greater understanding than a concrete ban.

I speak about childbirth to my female childless friends occasionally. If my experience isn't relevant (or hers isn't) we go 'oh, right, you haven't experienced that'. No biggie, really. I talk about having a child with a disability to friends who haven't got one. Sometimes we have a discussion, sometimes we go 'oh, right, no shared experience'. Sometimes I have more shared experience with men, and most of the women I know would be unable to comprehend or understand my own experience (am ex military).

Shared experiences are valid. And I actually do support some single sex spaces, but largely because the current binary and legislation has made them necessary. In a society where equality was more concrete, they wouldn't be necessary. The more you legislate to preserve single sex spaces, the more solid you make the binary, and oppression and against women.

It's all swings and roundabouts.

madwoman - I think if woman want woman only space such as book clubs, they should have a right to it. I know some women don't care about that fine, but some do.

And kritiq - I think it is fine for people to come together with shared experiences whatever that group is. So black woman for example may want to meet together to dicuss and support each other around shared experiences of racism against woman for example.

There is something that is really empowering about talking to other people about experiences when they have similar experiences too.

Been at work all day. Can someone precis the thread for me?

You are joking aren't you?

Sorry that was meant ironically, I do know you are kind of joking.

We talked about it all day.

Went around in circles.

Were generally polite to each other.

And my head exploded.

That's about it.

Yes nobody got deleted - I think?

yes kidding. When I have a quiet 6 days I'll read back. Nice to see it still going though.

Nope, no deletions!

Elephants. Really? Women only book clubs should be legally protected? Why?

If you are going to run a formal book club, in a library, surely it should be open to all?

If you are going to decide to read a book and discuss with ten of your born female friends, no one would bat an eyelid? that would cater for your need for a woman only space?

I love book clubs (also have a friend who researches them lol). I'm a bit baffled by why reading and contemplating life and experiences should be a gendered activity, and legally defined as such?

Some of my book clubs would have killed for an mtf or ten to share their experiences. Pontificating about your own shared stuff is all fine, but surely it's horizon broadening to learn about others personal experiences? Is that not what a book club is about?

I thought most book clubs are not formal clubs run in libraries? All the ones I know are volunteers who run one for neighbours, friends, etc.

No it is not a gendered activity by itself. But some women like being in all women company some of the time. For some women it is in the girly spa day, for others it is in book clubs or discussion groups.

Well quite. No one is going to bang on your front door and demand entry to your living room when you are sitting there with your girl friends... So I don't understand why this would in any sense (a private meeting between friends) be a target for legislation? More formal entities I can understand.

But you'd have your gendered zone in your living room by personal choice. No one is going to legislate or target your friendship and demand you be friends with them...

Why would you even a gender policy for your book club that is just a few mates in the living room? If it's Kate, jo, Liv and Clare popping round to discuss the book?

An MTF trans who had been barred from a town book club in a public library by virtue of her gender status, yup. Legal challenge.