Male nurses supervising female patients/female nurses supervising male patients

[ButterPopcorn]

DP is training to be a mental health nurse. Where he is working at the moment, patients are supervised by two members of staff at a time (nurses/support workers etc). Female patients must be supervised by at least one female member of staff, not two males. Male patients can be supervised by two male or two female members of staff or a mixture.

In conversation, DP wondered if this was "discrimination" against male members of staff as they were restricted in the patients they could look after. He was sort of playing devil's advocate saying that but it got me wondering.

When I asked him what reasons the workplace would give for this, he wasn't sure whether it was to protect patients (?) or protect staff (against allegations?).

Anyone got any thoughts on this? Is it a common, sensible practice for vulnerable people? Is it "discrimination" against the male members of staff?!

Sensible. Female people with mental health issues are vulnerable to predators, because those bastards love to abuse "easy targets."
So if a female patient is never alone with a male staff member, it means:

1. Lesser chance of her being triggered, re-traumatized
2. Lesser chance of her being sexually assaulted by the staff member This happens since abusers like to work with vulnerable people, it's a real problem :(

And I'm of course not saying that all male nurses are abusers, but you never know who are one. So it' s sensible.

Privacy & dignity, additionally protection for all parties concerned.

I dont think it is discriminatory at all, its the stark reality of society today.

Its like same sex wards, very important imho (not alwasy practical) but essential.

No it's not discrimination. What a shame he thinks it is.

Thats does sound pretty off , although in the docs if examinations happen and I have a male doctor the chaperone is always female, I'm not sure if its related.

I can empathise with a man who has studied worked as hard as his females colleagues to essentially be treat as a potential predator. simply due to his gender.

It is 50/50 protection for both client and male staff.
If the female client becomes sexually disinhibited because of a particular illness esp the female is vulnerable.

On a single sex ward ie all male clients it is impossible to get all male workers as ratio of male v female nurses is far lower.

I have never heard of one case in 20 yrs years of a male mental health nurse actually sexually abuse a female client, but many very ill female clients accuse male nurses when they are unwell. So if your husband OP feels he can work alone with a femaile client will be then leaving himself wide open. He also needs to contact NMC if he needs further clarification on this.

A male client needs two females at least because the female nurse could be at risk re man stronger the woman (usually).

I'd heard sexual abuse of female patients was quite common in mental health facilities. It's the sort of facility that would attract predators in the first place, and of course nobody will believe the victims because they'll just be accused of making it up for being unwell.

mrsnesbit - if one of the reasons is privacy and dignity, why is it OK for a male patient to be supervised by two female nurses but not vice versa?

nyac - why is it not discrimination? I can understand that it wouldn't be if all patients had to be supervised either by nurses of the same sex or by a male/female combination but that is not the case.

Realistically, women are at greater risk of sexual abuse than men are, regardless of context.

This doesn't change when you translate it to a mental health care setting. Female clients are more at risk of abuse from male staff and other male patients than are male clients from female staff or other female patients.

As a student nurse over 20 years ago, another student and + reported a senior staff nurse in the mixed acute psychiatric ward where we were placed. His behaviour was (putting it mildly) inappropriate towards very vulnerable female patients and junior staff. Gave evidence against him twice and he oonly didn't get chucked from the regisster on a technicality.

What bugged me at the time is that no other staff seemed to see anything wrong in him kissing dlusional women patients on the lips or asking them for a cuddle. They didn't raise an eyebrow at him teasing female students about sexually disinhibeted male patients harassing them or that he tried to cop a feel himself when he could. Found out later successive sets of students 'knew' he was one to avoid, but no one anywhere did anything.

Side note, but it was while on this placement I first recognised the link between porn and sexual violence. Learned lots there and not from the syllabus either!

I also thought that sexual abuse of female patients with mental health issues was very common. Although I think much of it is perpetrated by fellow patients. There was that awful case on the news the other day where a woman had been raped and no-one believed her and she committed suicide but they discovered in the end that she had been telling the truth.

Also I don't think discrimination is quite the right word - what is the negative impact on a male nurse not being able to work with female patients in this situation? I don't think male gynaes etc feel discriminated against that they have to have a female chaperone there for examinations.

And as others have pointed out - it helps prevent abuse and it helps prevent malicious accusations (I don't know how common this with women in these institutions but I Believe You would be my starting point - see case I mentioned earlier).

Re-read that - of course sexual abuse against vulnerable females is carried out by those who are supposed to be caring for them, just trying to make the point that they are at risk from fellow patients as well.

Why would men want access to vulnerable female patients anyway. I'd be suspicious of any man who didn't understand the vulnerability of women in that situation and the fact that they need to be protected, not have men's "rights" put first.

Kritiq that's a horrifying story.

I've had an allegation made against me as a student nurse (NOT sexual) and I would do anything now to protect myself from that again. Equally, patients in my care are vulnerable and to be protected.

If both male and female staff have to stick to certain policies, how exactly can it be discrimination?

well all the male nurses I knew were either married to other nurses, gay, or knocking another female nurse off...so OP be warned(JOKE)! But never heard of abusing a female client! To much choice in the staffroom (JOKE)!
There is a lot of female clients who are unwell and become deluded they are with male nurses etc... as they look up to them/father figure etc etc
But of course like any profession there are people who should never be working with that type of vulnerble group...just never saw/heard anything on my watch!

I"m really worried that you're dismissing female patients who are reporting assualts by male nurses as deluded seaofyou.

You're saying it never happens, but in the next breath reporting that there are patients reporting that it does. Why don't you believe them?

Nyac, why are you accussing me of being unprofessional? I have helped client who was accusing male nurse and took it very serious! However the occassion reported I was on duty and the male nurse was not even their! Client not well, not their fault I never judged!!
I did not say it NEVER happens (just has never happened in my 20 years of experience) I said some people work in professions who should not be their...if you reread my last sentence...happens among lots of pofessions!

OP I think your dh should go to NMC for guidlines as it is not discrimination...but protection for all male nurse and female client. If your dh goes against these guidlines then your dh is not following professional guidlines.

I wasn't accusing you of being unprofessional. I wasn't really thinking about your profession, I was just wondering why you were saying that sexual assault doens't happen to female mental patients by male staff but also saying that there are a lot of accusations (that aren't believed). That seems contradictory. Have you thought that maybe more of those accusations are true than perhaps you thought.

Discrimination against staff?
I think the patient's safety, privacy and dignity superceeds the 'rights' of staff.

There was a lot of female staff attacked Nyac by male clients.

I only had that one case personally but yes a lot of female client accusations, that were always investigated, male nurses suspended, police brought in etc. I do not know of a male mental health nurse being found gulity in MY experience.....but yes lots of reports of male nurses. It is not my job to judge/believe neither the client or the nurse as I am their to just support the female client...that is the police/forensics job.
Female clients more at risk from male clients in my experience.

But women are never believed about sexual assault. Women with mental health problems have even more problems being believed. So predators can have a field day in that setting. Hence women patients being offered some protection by having to have female staff present. You can't trust the police to get to the bottom of things, because generally they don't.

I'm sure that female patients are at risk from male patients too. They're at risk full stop.

I don't know Nyac, one male patient was found guilty. So justice done their thankfully! Every case is taken seriously and their is hospital policies also. I think if it wasn't taken seriously then they would allow 2 male nurses to be with one female patient otherwise.

Hand on heart I know the male nurses I had experience to work with were not preditors. I would have been the first wistleblower let me tell you!

OT There was a lot of affairs but that was between staff members and their buisness!

Men are much more likely to be sexual abusers. Fact.

Yes bobble and that is why it is is good they have guidlines like at least one female nurse with male nurse...protects both parties...50/50. If guidlines are followed then there should be no risk of abuse.

But male nurses and female patients aren't in need of 50-50 protection. The numbers of sexual predators is much higher than the number of false accusations of sexual predation.

A woman who has been sectioned under the mental health act and is unable to leave her facility is far more vulnerable than any nurse.

Different units have different guidelines.
You could argue that a policy of routinely having everyone with 2:1 supervision is unecessarily intrusive, obviously there will be cases when it is needed, but everyone? It might be that the type of unit does justify that approach, but it isnt the case that everyone receiving nursing observation needs 2 members of staff, or that staff always have to be of the same gender as the patient.