Male nurses supervising female patients/female nurses supervising male patients

[ButterPopcorn]

DP is training to be a mental health nurse. Where he is working at the moment, patients are supervised by two members of staff at a time (nurses/support workers etc). Female patients must be supervised by at least one female member of staff, not two males. Male patients can be supervised by two male or two female members of staff or a mixture.

In conversation, DP wondered if this was "discrimination" against male members of staff as they were restricted in the patients they could look after. He was sort of playing devil's advocate saying that but it got me wondering.

When I asked him what reasons the workplace would give for this, he wasn't sure whether it was to protect patients (?) or protect staff (against allegations?).

Anyone got any thoughts on this? Is it a common, sensible practice for vulnerable people? Is it "discrimination" against the male members of staff?!

Nayc, I can only comment on my experiences and I can only say that in my experience male mental health nurses were not preditors of clients. I know this is not always the case as KIT pointed out one male nurse, which is very worrying his behaviour was ignored.

I believe that single sex wards are better and healthier for esp the female client with female nurses. But that is not reality and is ideal setting.

The battering of male mental health nurses on this thread sounds like they do need protecting OP I hope this doesn't put your dh off nursing.

I am just trying to explain from a female in the position point of view. Female nurses were more at risk tbh from male patients. But that is part of our job so not grumbling, just stating another experience as males just as unwell as females.

But a male nurse is never allowed to be left alone with a female client at any time, it is against guidlines...I hope that gives some reassurrance to you Nyac as we both at least agree yes these are very vulnerable female group.

back in the Eighties and Nineties I worked in a variety of Mental Health units, we were hyper vigilant and condemnatory of any suggestion of male staff over-involvement or abuse of female clients, and while it did still happen, generally people were on it fast. Any suggestion of a relationship developing either on or off the ward was really heavily questioned and ended if possible.

However, there was a very different attitude if a female staff member ''fancied'' some of the male patients; we got a lot of quite tough guys in with drug and alcohol problems, and I know of at least three female nurses and two psycho-therapists who had sexual relationships with male clients, without any real consequences to their careers.

That did change later, with a couple of female staff being moved off the ward for inappropriate behaviour, but it was a while coming.

nayc.
does it bother you attall that the accusations may have been truamatic for the male nurses, and even when aquitted there would have been doubt hanging over them? not your battle?

chairmanmeow which is a large part of the reason why male HCPs are not alone with female patients.

It is for the protection of the women and the protection of their carers.

Nyac says that it is a good idea that this "chaperone" policy is in place - do you disagree with her? Won't that result in more false accusations and more actual abuse?

This thread is throwing up some excellent examples of why "I believe you" is so important.

When it come to being believed, female mental health patients are not in a terribly great position, are they. Look at that poor woman I spoke about upthread who committed suicide.

discrimination against male members of staff?

is this a joke or is he actually that stupid? what do you think the odds of female psych patients having experienced some sort of sexual violence in their lives prior to admission might be?

what makes you think i disagree with the chaperone policy?

If you are going to be campaigning for male psychiatric nurses who are falsely accused of sexually abusing their clients, then there must be an opportunity for that in the first place.

Just a quick point - it's not just an issue of ensuring that male health care practitioners are accompanied by female staff when carrying out intimate procedures. In the case I described, I don't know that the Senior Staff nurse was ever actually on his own with the vulnerable female clients, or the student nurses for that matter. He did what he did in front of other patients and staff, so perhaps it fits more closely with the concept of sexual harassment rather than sexual assault.

But, it wasn't just his behaviour towards the vulnerable women patients or the female student nurses that was the issue. Male patients copied what he was doing in their behaviour towards women patients and toward student nurses. Another student nurse and I were surely not the only staff there who noticed this. (In the hearing, the senior nurse claimed that hugging, kissing and calling female patients 'terms of endearment' was "therapeutic" -- absolute bullshit!)

With regard to porn, about once a fortnight when some of the patients received a payment/allowance, those allowed outside the ward (and on at least one occasion, a male member of staff!) went to the corner shop and bought porn mags, which the male patients tended to pass around. It was extremely "tame" by comparison to the explicit, overtly violent imagery in porn today. Even so, I was stunned by the impact of consuming porn on male patients - in terms of their sexually disinhibited behaviour and language used with particularly female staff, and in their interactions with female patients. Again, I couldn't believe no one else noticed the connection between having to pull male patients off vulnerable female patients in the 24-48 hours after these magazines made the rounds. I'd never thought one way or other about porn before that, but my eyes were flipping opened, that's for sure.

If the rule is that a female patient can have two women or one man and one woman - then I don't think the male nurses are restricted? In that they can still work with all the female patients, just might work with them less often. I could see the upset that might be caused if they were totally banned, no one likes being made to feel like a predator (trust me, it really hurts). It would seem fairer and safer to have the same rule for male patients though - either two men or one man and one woman

Lilka, I don't think there is any question of banning male health care practitioners from working with female patients in any discipline. It's about reducing risks - including risk for the worker should a patient make an allegation against them. This need not be specifically about sexual assault, either.

Something I neglected to mention above that's really important is patient choice. If a male patient doesn't want say to have a urinary catheter fitted by a woman and there is a male practitioner available who can do it, they should have the choice.

The difficulty, however, is about the availability of male and female health care practitioners. Within general nursing, I think fewer than 5% of frontline roles are held by men - a higher proportion are male in mental health. Similarly, women are under represented amongst the ranks of surgeons. So, just as it may not always be possible for a woman to be offered a female gynaecologist, it may not be possible for a man to be offered a bed bath by two male carers or even one male and one female.

This is an interesting article on this problem. Certainly since single sex wards are no longer the norm.

www.medscape.com/viewarticle/440095

And certainly we can never forget the recent events as highlighted by Panorama, in the now closed Bristol Care Home.

Sorry it's behind a paywall.

Just been reading this thread and felt compelled to tell you my sisters story.

My sister was under section in a psychiatric unit, suffering from schizophrenia, she was very very unwell at times. She was groomed and sexually assaulted by a male nurse over the course of a year, this included sex in a stairwell of the hospital, in her room and in her flat when she had a few hours leave. This was a well known London psychiatric unit.

Had there been a rule stopping male nurses from working with female patients alone it could never of happened.
When she finally disclosed it to the staff she was hounded with accusations of lying, and it was we as her family who
Notified the police, he was convicted and sentenced to 18 months in jail.
This was only three years ago.

I know that most male nurses are not predators of course, but I deeply wish that my sister had been protected from one who was.

good practice is female pts not solely on special obs by male staff
this protects both the staff and the Pt.
nhs trusts have no mandatory requirement to provide same sex wards, although it is recommended a designated female only area be provided.

these measures arose out of campaigning for female only designated areas, and longer term to aim for single sex wards. establishing single sex unit will incur cistern, and time to adapt and modify existing building. and formula for ensuring optimum female bed occupancy and projected bed requirements

had to acknowledge your post stillthinking
how dreadful what a shocking abuse to vulnerable woman, how is your sister now?she's fortunate to have a supportive strong family to have been there for her

single sex wards means only single sex patients though, and it's usually the staff you need to worry about not other patients

no, that's not true at all.most significant risk is with other unwell vulnerable pts

am only speaking from my ow experience of course

that's v sad then in that case
pts need to receive respect and care ESP when vulnerable
there are unfortunately poor staff with bad practice, however they are tiny minority

after reading stillthinking i'm rethinking my position here. when i hear stuff like 'men rape etc" my first reaction is to suggest that it's exagerated , because i find it hard to belive that so many members of my sex would rape , and, if it's true, how that will reflect on me. but of course clearly some men rape/abuse etc and they will , if they are smart endevour to plant themselves in a position where they can get away with it. Nurses of psycolodgicaly unstable patients have a situation where they can abuse and then sya "well she would say that , she's nuts "

i feel for the true careing male nurses though ,and the long dark cloud of suspicion that falls over them

unfortunately abuses occur
tiny minority staff
the vast majority staff are v committed,and competent and are reviled by such abuse of position

its both

plus, well there aren't always 2 males on duty in nursing, some shifts there's no male nurses, but there's always two females, so a rule saying there must always be a male staff with a male patient couldn't be enforced.

it's rare to have no males on shift
in that case a male could be swooped from another ward