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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Equality at home - Can this really be achieved?

999 replies

marga73 · 06/04/2012 22:55

There is an issue I've been wanting to discuss for a long time. It's the issue of equality inside the house.

Even though women now work and are able to gain respectable positions in the workplace, and we can say that some level of equality has been attained, it seems to me that once they have children, women lose more than men in terms of work opportunities and financial independence. And all because the house and the children still seem to be a "woman's job".

It's all great to find women who are happy being the SAHP, but don't these women feel sometimes that being 100% financially dependent on their husbands is frustrating? Doesn't this situation make them feel trapped and powerless? Is it OK for women to sacrifice their independence for the sake of their children and the house keeping?

I work part-time, and have two small children, and still feel trapped sometimes. I'm grateful in many ways that my husband earns enough so we don't have to worry about paying for mortgage, food, childcare etc - and I contribute to this too - but I feel it's far beyond from the ideal I had when I was young and it really annoys me. If I'm honest, it makes me very angry.

I would like a society where men and women work part time, share domestic tasks 50/50, and look after their children part time, and therefore pay for everything on equal terms. Is this too much to ask in the fierce capitalist society we live today? Am I naive to think that should be the case?

OP posts:
swallowedAfly · 11/04/2012 08:45

and could one not say to the father doing the high power job in your scenario 'what was the point of having children if you're never going to see them and someone else is going to raise them for you?'. do you question why we don't say that and yet do say it to a woman?

that's the structural sexism bit again.

exoticfruits · 11/04/2012 08:48

I think I am bashing Xenia-she is the one who said it! Xenia thinks head of BP is 'wonderful and fascinating' BUT there is no way you can do it part time! I don't think that Xenia wants to work part time and spend 2 and a half days a week ironing! I just want her to explain who is doing it all while she is working full time at her wonderful job-if her DP wants one too. Who stays at home if the DC is ill?

I keep being accused of being extreme-I am not-only countering the other extreme.

exoticfruits · 11/04/2012 08:51

I did say it-swallowedaFly-I said that he could have 5 yrs max at it, if he then had a whole family end plan. I said I would loathe being married to Head of BP.If you are a man and Head of BP why have DCs. It is a dreadful job for anyone IMO unless they are totally dedicated, without family.

exoticfruits · 11/04/2012 08:53

I agree yet again Bonsoir. It seems odd to have DCs and leave them all day with someone that you think is not as intelligent as you.

exoticfruits · 11/04/2012 08:55

Childhood passes quickly. DCs are not interested in money and quality time (not if they have plenty of both)-they want time-and lots of it.

WasabiTillyMinto · 11/04/2012 08:56

VG - have somehow brought this on themselves

i dont think women have brought this on themselves. in the ideal world men would change.

however, i dont think that is realistic, so i want women to make the change, which is not the same a being responsible for causing the problem.

i think there is a vast difference between e.g. a DV situation where a women has been erroded by the abuse, so cannot reasonably expected to take action, & an average, healthy woman who is responsible for choosing to put up with being treated as a second class citizen.

Why should a woman not make this change in her life? why shouldnt feminism inspire her to do this?

Bonsoir · 11/04/2012 08:58

The trouble with leaving your DCs with someone less intelligent than you (and we have plenty of experience of that in this family as the DSSs were left with a nanny - and not a stupid one at that - for many years) is that they learn next to nothing during the time they spend with her. This isn't a big problem for some sorts of activities like visits to the playground after school, but, IMVHO and VHE, it is a big issue when it comes to being at home and children having culturally and educationally enriching autonomous, or semi-autonomous, experiences like reading, drawing, choosing which film to watch, playing board games etc.

exoticfruits · 11/04/2012 09:03

It seems to be saying to me that people with DCs should both work part time and leave the full time, top jobs to the childless!! Is this what people really want? Hmm Much better IMO to be equal but unequal in terms of employment-as long as you agree which parent. You would do better to both have some years each and then swap. e.g. the father has 5 years (easier with maternity leave and bfeeding) and then it is the mother's 5 yrs. (or 6, 7 etc) and then you both get back.

swallowedAfly · 11/04/2012 09:14

i think given the state of the economy the way forward is a lot more job shares. that allows the part time hours without the part time impact on the role if it is well managed.

i actually can't see how everyone working full time is sustainable with the way the job market is going. it's my opinion that the way the male dominated government would address this is to push more women back into the home doing the free childcare, care of the elderly etc and to make life increasingly difficult for single mothers to attempt to make women stay in unhappy marriages as they're cheaper their and don't need to be provided with as much infrastructure eg. affordable childcare, working patterns that fit with parenting etc.

it's all very well liking being a sahp but it's necessary to recognise that the state has vested interests in keeping women in marriage and in the home and that those interests are sought by making alternatives difficult.

snapsnap · 11/04/2012 09:15

I think that referring to the extreme of high powered roles is unhelpful as that is not what most men or women want, or are necessarily capable of. I have an interesting job that I can do part time. Its in a company of 3k employees and I am a Head of Department. I wont ever reach director level and that sometimes bothers me but not half as much as not spending time with my DC's would.

At the same time the extreme of staying at home and hothousing your children is also not a reality. For most women with multiple DC's and limited, if any , home help, there days are busy and involve lots of tasks that dont all involve interaction with your DC's.

Xenia, Exotic and Bonsoir all have views, imo, that are quite extreme and not really all that representative of most womens real lives.

swallowedAfly · 11/04/2012 09:28

agreed.

most working women can't afford nannies and cleaners.

most women have jobs, not careers.

most sahms are not there as a result of a pure choice but a combination of societal pressure, economics and the path of least resistance after having children in a heterosexual relationship.

most working mums do so for financial reasons rather than the sheer joy of working.

most women will be both sahms and wohms throughout their children's childhoods.

most couples need both partners to work and could not afford the sahm/wohd set up so it's not a viable 'choice' for most anyway.

etc.

swallowedAfly · 11/04/2012 09:29

oh and the obvious chestnut that not all families consist of a man and a woman and their biological children living under one roof.

exoticfruits · 11/04/2012 09:43

My views are middle of the road when replying to middle of the road people-they just become extreme when people like Xenia assume that a job is fascinating for all, when I wouldn't do it for all the tea in china-and wouldn't want to be married to a man who did it either!

sunshineandbooks · 11/04/2012 09:48

I don't think it matters if you are a SAHM, a WOHM, or one of the tiny few who work part-time and share everything 50/50 with your partner.

To my mind, the question is what needs changing in the organisation of society to encourage greater equality? Or perhaps it would be more sensible to first look at what is preventing greater equality.

Part of that is questioning the SAHM/WOHM dichotomy. Does it actually need to exist at all? Isn't it an effective tool of the patriarchy to pit women (or their choices) against one another? Isn't that what the OP is asking? WHY is it not possible for many more women to find the middle ground. SAHPing has traditionally been a position occupied by the privileged few and that less than 10% of people (let alone women who are even fewer in number) achieve high-flying career status. Most women (indeed people generally) have lives that are extraordinary in their personal meaning and they simply work. It serves no purpose to argue the SAHM/WOHM continuously because this ignores the reality for the vast majority.

It is interesting that the SAHM/WOHM debate is so persistent in the face of this. What more proof do we need that structural sexism is alive and well and continuing to pit women against each other instead of spending their energy more constructively trying to find solutions to the work/home balance that are gender neutral.

How does this happen? Some women genuinely believe one way is better than the other. That's fair enough but only the unintelligent would assume that works for them will work for every single woman out there. No two families are the same. Polarised articles in the press also encourage it.

Cost of childcare also has an effect. The effect of our most-expensive-in-the-world childcare solution is that it allows only the poorest (through subsidy) or the well-off to take advantage of it (even this is changing as subsidy is cut). Leaving out the huge number of women in the middle. This results in many women having to choose the most economic solution rather than making a genuine choice, and it is often those forced into positions who, in seeking to justify to themselves their non-existent choice, become accidental propagandists, and because it touches a nerve with other women in the same position so it continues.

Capitalism is possibly the biggest factor. The pursuit of money is considered the most important point in the world. It's justified with arguments that claim happiness and equality can only be achieved if there is the money to fund these lofty ideals. As long as this idea goes unchallenged, there will always be inequality. It will always be the case that the high earner will be considered more worthy than the carer. Despite the huge amount of money saved by care of the eldery/disabled/children/mentally ill, because these activities do not generate money, they are considered worthless. I think that's an attitude we should be challenging strongly. If all the caring stopped and the government was forced to deal with it, the cost would be incalculable. That by itself should point to the value of caring and why it is important to enshrine this value in our society.

And why do we need money to fund childcare? Before industrialisation, women (apart from the upper middle and land-owning classes) coped without any formal childcare because they either took their children with them to work or could rely on an informal support network of extended family and community. Now no one wants to return to the past and taking your child to work with you isn't ideal in many cases, but it illustrates how capitalism works against the natural structure of society and removes the support networks that help women and protect children. It breaks down families and fractures communities. For what? A new ipad in every home?

We don't have to advocate communism but we do need to accept that capitalism left to reign unchecked is ugly and damages all but those at the very top. The most successful societies are those where equality is greatest and capitalism has had the brakes applied to protect the vulnerable (in which women always dominate the numbers) and to encourage community growth - which relies fundamentally on people not working all hours. People working 60-hour weeks cannot paint the local community centre, deliver meals on wheels, help out a struggling mum or babysit their grandchildren to allow the parents to work.

Capitalism needs to put a quantifiable value on caring. And even if it isn't actually paid to the carers in reality, it should be factored into the economic equations. Only then will be it recognised how important it is, and only with that recognition will there follow a improvement in status. This would result in more male SAHPs and also more families where more effort is made to split work/caring 50/50. And since capitalism works with a trickle-down approach to wealth and ideas, this solution needs to come from the top, not from those at the bottom who are simply told "there's plenty out there who will do this job if you don't like the way it works".

Bonsoir · 11/04/2012 09:52

snapsnap - I hope that you will be leaving France before your DCs start proper schooling or you will be in for a big shock if you think that what I do is "hothousing" Wink. French school offers... the very bare minimum required to meet its own stringent standards. You will find your own parenting (rather than the teaching provided by school) being tested.

snapsnap · 11/04/2012 10:14

Bonsoir - I will be leaving within 6 months. It will be an unexpecetdly short stay but my DH got offered a position back home (Dublin) that really is the dream move for us.
Unfortunately my job wont move with me but I hopefully have a pt position lined up.
I am not sure Irish schools are much different and I always imagined I would be doing homework with my DC's and we enjoy reading, jolly phonics etc.

Bonsoir · 11/04/2012 10:18

I know nothing about Irish schools and whether or not parents feel able to leave a lot up to them or not. France is particularly bad right now (it wasn't nearly as bad in the past) for requiring parental top-up (whether in kind, or paid for) in order to have a chance of making it through and out the other side with a qualification that leads to meaningful HE.

MrsBaggins · 11/04/2012 19:44

Brilliant post Sunshine
I had no idea Bonsoir that the standards in french schools were so dire.
Having DC now at University I can honestly look back and feel bloody lucky that my DC have had fantastic state schooling.
I should add though that WOH parents are just as dedicated to their DC and their education as SAH and I really dont think exoticthat one person has to have a "lesser job".
My DH and I are equally successful at work but unlike many of my friends DH he doesnt think it is beneath him to get stuck into chores/cook/clean.

Bonsoir · 11/04/2012 19:57

MrsBaggins - what you need to grasp is that the standards required by French schools are quite high, but that the teaching doesn't get the DCs anywhere near those standards --> lots of top ups.

wordfactory · 11/04/2012 20:01

But Mrs Baggins, how did you manage to support your DC in their education?

Not being difficult - genuine question. When I was a WOHP I simply didn't get back at any reasonable time. And DH certainly didn't and still doesn't.

MrsBaggins · 11/04/2012 20:12

Bonsoir I dont need to grasp it - my Dc achieved high standards without "top ups". If they are not educating DC to those standards they are failing !
Of course I gave my DC every assistance I could to facilitate their education as do many parents whether they are SAH or WOH .

Bonsoir · 11/04/2012 20:16

I was just trying to illuminate the difference between a school's standards of achievement and a school's standards of teaching Smile. I had no idea, before I encountered it for myself, of the vast gulf that could co-exist between the two...

MrsBaggins · 11/04/2012 20:30

wordfactory

I took 2 years Maternity leave by the time my first DC was 4 and worked parttime ,with DH who worked flexibly covering my days at work( 2 days)
Due to the flexibility one of us was always at home to pick up and do homework etc. I worked 7am - 3pm
We divided the responsibility- DH always did book bags /reading and school trips and I organised packed lunches and playdates/swimming.
4-6pm was time for homework and DH or I did it depending who was at home.
I agree that we dont have the usual 9-6 working hours or long commute.

wordfactory · 11/04/2012 20:31

But Mrsbaggins how were you able to facilitate your DC's education from work?

wordfactory · 11/04/2012 20:36

Ah thank you, cross posts.

See I do think this is the issue here. Often when posters are advocating both parents having full time careers, their own experience is not easy to roll out for others.

Xenia often talks about women pursuing demanding careers but doesn't always feel the need to mention her DH was a teacher! Now not to denigrate teachers but their hours in school are pretty conducive. Yes, they might work in the evenings but they can, in between, help their DCs etc.

Some careers are just very hard to juggle. They require being physically elsewhere. And if that includes both parents, it's hard to do the other stuff [been there and worn that tee shirt emoticon].