Equality at home - Can this really be achieved?

[marga73]

There is an issue I've been wanting to discuss for a long time. It's the issue of equality inside the house.

Even though women now work and are able to gain respectable positions in the workplace, and we can say that some level of equality has been attained, it seems to me that once they have children, women lose more than men in terms of work opportunities and financial independence. And all because the house and the children still seem to be a "woman's job".

It's all great to find women who are happy being the SAHP, but don't these women feel sometimes that being 100% financially dependent on their husbands is frustrating? Doesn't this situation make them feel trapped and powerless? Is it OK for women to sacrifice their independence for the sake of their children and the house keeping?

I work part-time, and have two small children, and still feel trapped sometimes. I'm grateful in many ways that my husband earns enough so we don't have to worry about paying for mortgage, food, childcare etc - and I contribute to this too - but I feel it's far beyond from the ideal I had when I was young and it really annoys me. If I'm honest, it makes me very angry.

I would like a society where men and women work part time, share domestic tasks 50/50, and look after their children part time, and therefore pay for everything on equal terms. Is this too much to ask in the fierce capitalist society we live today? Am I naive to think that should be the case?

but no one is denying you your right to choose that if your partner is willing exotic!

others are saying they'd rather in that situation both take less demanding jobs, ideally part time and share the load so it doesn't have to be so divided and that society shouldn't get in their way of doing that.

others are saying they want to work so society needs to be able to accommodate that.

why do any of these things threaten yours? except that men's attitudes might change and they may no longer be willing to work 12hr days and never see their kids.

I am just pointing out to Xenia why there are not enough women at the top.

If men's attitudes change it will probably be that people without DCs are the ones at the top. It doesn't work if either sex says 'I can't be at that top level meeting-it is my DCs sport's day'.

so! no one is stopping xenia doing it her way and no one is stopping exotic doing it her way.

i think the thread was explicitly about middle ways of avoiding either of those extremes which many people don't want.

the middle ways, the balance and sharing ways, seem to be the ones that are hard to achieve precisely because society is set up for the exotic model or having to go the whole xenia model to avoid it whereas most would like to be somewhere in the middle.

but you've said yourself exotic that she and you have had that discussion fruitlessly a million times so why jump back into it again - you're diametrically opposed and the arguments between those two poles are well known by all.

shouldn't people looking for other ways be able to discuss that without the polemics of the same old argument?

mind you that discussion seems to have been chased off by the same old sahm/wohm vitriol and black and white inflammatory arguing.

in real life i don't know women who work and denigrate sahms and i don't know sahms who denigrate working mums. i know mums working it out as they go along and doing what is needed and trying to carve out lives of balance either solo or with their partners.

Most people have the middle way-including me! I do actually work and have done most of my life! However you do not get to the top in the middle way.

but the premise of this thread and the things we were discussing weren't about getting to the top.

xenia is one poster with an extreme and rather narrow view - to focus on her view as central is clearly going to skewer things into extremes.

and what top? there is no top and who really gives a fuck? you can't get from the bottom to the top anyway - you have to be born with a fairly good starting point which is something some like to deny but most of us know to be true and have witnessed in our families and their histories.

but you've said yourself exotic that she and you have had that discussion fruitlessly a million times so why jump back into it again

God knows!! I just get irritated to death with Xenia's tread mill of life. 'Get a top job -afford school fees for the best school so that your DC can get a top job to afford school fees' etc. I wonder when one will say 'actually I want to get off and be a surf instructor in Cornwall-earn peanuts and have a wonderful time!'

i KNOW believe me but every time it gets reacted to a whole thread diverges and makes it falsely appear that women live in two camps - one of super earner, hard nosed, get to the top at all costs and don't dirty your hands with childcare and one of fluffy loved up sahms who want nothing more than to spend their days baking cakes and basking in the satisfaction of raising their children.

in reality - i dont' know ANY women like that!

and what top? there is no top and who really gives a fuck?

Quite a lot do and I am replying since I have been told that my attitude is 'letting down women'.

and the pretense that each of those camps exists on a pure mound called 'choice' in an equal playing field which is utter bollocks.

by one person who always says that shit and who do you think listens?

our cross posting is going to make little sense out of real time because i never put quotes sorry.

Well neither do I swallowedAfly-most do a juggling act. Most are quite happy doing a juggling act and having a bit of both.

I have things to do so will stop. I am not arguing against anything, but the extreme view that I have to earn my own money and career must come first. My family comes first and everything else comes around it.

that is indeed an extreme view and i hope you can see it is one that very few people espouse round these parts.

so most do a juggling act - most do a bit of both.

i think the premise of the thread was looking at how if men and women both did a bit of both in an equal way would there be less juggling and more balance and more equality between the two.

I amn ot against middle ways. Most peoople are mediocre. Most don't work very hard. The average IQ is 100 and average pay about £20,000. it's not that hard to be better than them whether you are male or female and with or without children.

What I am against is countless women who takl about middle ways but it's virtually always them compromising, something they often later regret.

I am middle way. The middle way is wanting fairness at home and work. The fact that I want that equality means people suggest I am extreme is the really interesting bit. My own long marriage was fair. Neither did more than the other at home. He washed the cloth nappies. I did the tax returns. I got school bags ready and plaited hair. He took the children to the dentist for 17 years and I never etc etc Like most femininst fair couples we divided it up fairly. Nor am I in life terms an extreme in the sense of never being here. I am around the children a lot and work for myself. If anythnig I am much more middle way than many women or men with children.

What gets me si the sexist relationships - where the man just happens to work full time and the woman a pittance part time, where she gets lumbered with dull domestic stuff, makes no pension provision, etc etc,. Leaves herself financially exposed, makes sacrifices which are not equal with her other half. Those are the extreme. Housewife or low earner part timer woman as extreme risk play as it were - very extreme and must be rooted out and destroyed.

I can see why there are more single women than there used to be, and the ones I know are definitely less happy in comparison to the non single women.

We have an equal partnership. Or rather we work as a team, each person trying to make sure the other has sufficient leisure time and rest time.

There is no resentment or hidden agenda in our partnership - each does tasks that they can comfortably do - dh does the hoovering and cleaning anything above my head height including the bathroom (it hurts my back) - I do the majority of the 'cooking' as he is a very plain cook. I do more DIY (painitng/gardening) than him but he uses the chainsaw to chop wood as his arms are stronger.

If you start from the position that you are equally valuable, equally worthy and you want the best situation for each other then you're in a good place.

amillionyears statistics don't bear out your theory of miserable single women. women tend to be unhappier whilst married than afterwards and men the opposite.

it's an extreme because it's not viable for the vast majority of people xenia and not just because they have an iq of 100 and are 'mediocre'. you obviously do this deliberately - no one could be that socially inept that they could think calling people mediocre and thick was neutral.

the sahms do need to consider the what happens if it all goes wrong factor - because whilst equally valuing each other etc works whilst together and you can argue you're in equal positions things change at the point of divorce where women become a lot poorer than men.

My DH and I both had high paying jobs and had not decided which of us (if at all) would give up work when DD was born. As it turned out, I was made redundant fairly late on in my pregnancy, so I stayed at home with her initially and it wasn't as easy as it would have been to go back to work. I felt our relationship was then unequal in my favour, as all the pressure to earn money was on DH and I spent loads more time with DD. DH has since been made redundant himself and we are now running our own business from home. We seem to have slipped into a couple of role, such as DH mowing the lawn and me doing the accounts, but everything else just gets done by whoever gets there first.

So ... we started off equal - after DD was born, I had all the benefits - and now we are equal again.

TThats great that it works for you exotic fruits. For me I have been both sole breadwinner and SAHP (whilst on maternity leave) as has dh. Neither is much fun IMO. As the sole breadwinner I felt like the weight of the world was on my shoulders, also dh was unfuffilled as aSAHD. I was bored out of my mind by SAH with 2under 3 and felt totally disconnected from the real world (particularly grim when no longer being paid). So for us this is by far the best option. I don't think working 50+ hour weeks are good for physical or mental health .

swallowedAFly, just look around you.