I have never posted on this topic, or read anything on here, and feel like I have misunderstood what it means to be a feminist. Would anyone have the time to educate me please?

[fabwoman]

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Hi fabwoman

Perhaps if you tell us what you're understanding of feminism/what it is to be a feminist is and then we can make some suggestions?

I would say being a feminist is wanting equality for both sexes and being free to choose to live your life how ever you want to. Whilst also disagreeing with the way the patriarchy have treated women for centuries and wanting to change the world for the better.

I think this article by Linda Grant is well worth a read. It makes you realise what life was like without feminism, and how far we still have to go.

I can't recall it now but I read something and it was the opposite of what I thought it meant to be a feminist . Something during a discussion about being a SAHM I think.

I don't even know what patriarchy means, nor mysogany which I have read about on here.

Linda Grant's article was very interesting, thank you.

If it was something that came up during a SAHM discussion it may have been someone pointing out that feminists value what SAHMs do and do not consider it anti-feminst to be one?

SAHM thread?

In my view having children / looking after them is not fully acknowledged by society as the important work it is and that is not good.
I think that the way things are at the moment it's set up so that generally people seem to slip into quite traditional gender roles when they have children - and I think this is a shame for people who do not enjoy strict gender roles
I think there should be more flexible family friendly employers and it saddens me that women see their earning potential fall off a cliff when they start their families
Pensions are an issue
That sort of thing
I could go on

Was it any of that sort of stuff that surprised you? Hard to know without the thread in question to look at!

I know, it is frustrating me too that I can't properly recall what I read.

I thought a feminist was someone who felt/or could do anything they wanted and didn't need a man to do anything for them. Who saw themselves as equal but then I couldn't square that with the illusive thread! ARGH. I am annoying myself now.

When DH and I found out I was expecting I immediately said one of us would have to stay at home. It was me as DH earned more than me then. I think he would have been a SAHD if I had still earned more than him.

I am quite old fashioned and tradtional and think I am letting women down really.

Fabwoman the way the world is (or patriarchy) let's women down. It sets up impossible 'choices' like sahm or not, both of which have disadvantages for women. Feminists think it shouldn't have to be that way. You're not letting women down, you're making decisions in a world that you didn't design.

And welcome to FWR

Being a SAHM doesn't feel like a disadvantage to me but I can see how it could be to those who have had proper careers before having children. I never had a career. I worked in shops or childcare only before having kids.

I have that same conundrum - my mother was an early 70s feminist who always worked fulltime, which was unusual in the very middle-class expat society I grew up in. It was what she wanted to do and she was bloody well going to do it - and I was proud of her for that.

And she'd be probably be turning in her grave if she knew that 40 years later her daughter is home looking after the kids, doing bits and bobs of PT work, while the man goes out and earns the proper cash.

But ultimately what she was fighting for wasn't just her right to work, it was her right to have a choice. And now I have the right to have a choice, and to be treated with equal fairness regardless of those choices. That's how I reconcile my feminism with my SAHM status.

DH acknowledges that what I do is as important as what he does, as he couldn't do what he does if I didn't do my stuff.

why are you not considering shops or childcare to be a valuable contribution? or one that is somehow not as worthy?

what is a 'proper' career? is it one that men (mostly) do and get paid more for?

why do you think you are 'old-fashioned' and 'traditional'? you have stated that if you earned more then dh would have been a sahd. that doesn't sound at all 'old-fashioned' or 'traditional'.

sometimes we make decisions based on real life circumstances, and if the circumstance has been fashioned by society, you have to acknowledge that the society has had an impact on the decisions we are able to make.

I suppose because I haven't done anything I had to train in and I am not qualified in anything.

No, women have proper careers too.

I am old fashioned as I like DH going out to work and looking after us. I expect him to sort out the car but lately I have been pumping up my own flat tyres and dug over the garden today. Also, I got rid of a dead mouse myself after waiting 2 days for dh to do it.

It's a disadvantage in terms of things like pension, status, income. And not being a sahm also has disadvantages. That's what I mean. And all those disadvantages are a result of the way society is set up. For example being a sahm could be venerated as the absolute best thing anyone could do. Instead earning money and having a big house and fancy car is held up as something to aspire to. All cos of the way society is set up. Women are damned if they do damned if they don't if you look at what is generally discussed. It's not do much a personal feeling, I'm pretty happy with my life, but I have a lot if options that buck the trend rather than are the trend iyswim.

To me it sounds like you have a great relationship where you appreciate each others contributions and have arranged things in the way that best suits your family. And you are happy.

Sounds like a great relationship to me, as a feminist and as a person!

I could tell you the things that I get exercised about, as a feminist?

Things like looking at the situation for women in places like afghanistan and saudi and feeling how depressingly awful it is
Reading the relationships board on here and seeing how many women are in dire situations
The "We believe you" campaign trying to smash through rape myths, and reading the stories of women who have shared them
Loads of stuff
You staying at home looking after your children and pumping up tyres while your DH earns money and your family works and you are all happy, is not something I am going to get exercised about! It makes me

I do think that structural change is needed in the UK when it comes to families and who does what and how and when - what the options are, how they are supported and so on - but that is a separate thing.

I wonder what you think about this. DD is 8. She doesn't want a husband. She talks about what she wants to be when older (so far these have included a mountaineer, author, artist,) she wants to adopt one child and not have any birth children. She talks like she neither wants or needs a man.

that's kind of what i meant - what is it that this society ascribes 'value' to?

yep, women have 'careers'. was the thread about women having to model themselves on masculine ideals to be deemed to be successful? (ie to have a 'career' and not 'sahm'.) were you surprised that feminists are more interested in ascribing equal value to different roles in and out of the home rather than suggesting all women should go and break balls have a 'career'?

i think questioning why more women than men sah is valid, but don't particularly have any strong feelings as to how people should arrange their own families or whether women (or men) work ft. we're all individuals.

i don't like it when women devalue their own roles against a predominantly masculine yardstick though. in an idea world emn would be able to take pt jobs and sah in the same way that women are expected to now. but nothing is going to change overnight. every little helps.

not needing a man to do everything for you is an entirely different kettle of fish to not sharing 'everything' you have to do with a man in a partnership. everyone sorts out their 'to-do' list differently and dishes out the jobs. it's nice to be capable of everything but still have someone to share the grot with. as well as the good stuff, natch.

(it wasn't that horrible joyless and antisex thing, was it?)

of course she doesn't want or need a man. she's 8.

when she's 28, she might want a man. or a woman. plenty of time for her to work that out later on. or not.

as long as she knows her options are open and not limited to 'find a man by 18 and have a couple of babies or end up a dry and wizened old hag' then you have nowt to worry about.

She has asked me if she has to be married to have a baby and we have said yes. I get the feeling that might have been the wrong thing to say. That is something else though yes? rather than feminisim.

I like to keep these things simple.

For me being a feminist is being a person who wants an end to the current situation of male supremacy. Who wants women to be liberated from male oppression.

If you fancy reading up on some of the concepts and tools of feminist analysis, this site is a great place to begin.

And welcome .

Agree with madwoman. And re the pt job thing, in an ideal world pt would not be seen as lesser. One if the things I am very lucky with is I am part time but pro rata I get paid the same as I would were I ft at this point in my career and I have no drop in status. That is rare. So many employers will only employ pt for the jobs lower down the scale and see it as somehow less committed. In a world of my design pt work would be valued the same as ft work, and women and men could readily balance work and family life with no resulting disadvantage.

I stayed at home with the DCs until they went to school and never felt that I was not being a feminist. We decided as a couple that, if possible, I would bf them until they self-weaned and that one of us would stay at home until they started school. As I earned less than DH (and had the right equipment to bf ), I was happy to stay at home. Of course, it wasn't always totally fulfilling every minute, but on the whole I enjoyed the time with them.

DH worked and also did all of the food shopping and cooking. I did most of the housework, but he pitched in at weekends. I went back to work when the DCs were at school and didn't have any problem picking up my career again.

Now, DH is at home full-time as he is unable to work through severe disability, and I work full-time. He still manages the shopping, cooking and paperwork.

Our sons consider it normal that men shop and cook and women work and do stuff with computers.

I am happy with how we have all supported each other by taking on responsibilities between us. It doesn't always work and we have arguments sometimes where we air our frustrations, but these always result in things being sorted out for everyone's benefit.