Parenting a boy is a feminist minefield!

[MadameBoolala]

I am a feminist.

I have one child, a 4 year old boy, and mainly post in conception as we have been ttc number 2 for 2 years without success now. However I am venturing onto these boards as I feel negatively judged today by someone, and my parenting is being called into question.

I won't have time to post again until I come back from work tonight- but I'm wondering aloud today if it's easier to be a feminist and a parent of a girl...

rosy there have been studies showing that the presence of an older sibling makes a significant difference to how "boyish" or "girlish" the next sibling down will be. So boys with an older male sibling will tend to behave in far more stereotypically masculine ways than boys with no older sibling or with a female older sibling. And girls with an older male sibling will also tend to exhibit more stereotypically masculine modes of behaviour than girls with no older sibling or an older female sibling.

Parents are, of course, a big influence on their children's behaviour and they way they perceive themselves, but other children even more so, once a child gets beyond the age of 2. There seems to be an innate desire in all children, male or female, to fit in with the other children they identify with and gender is the most obvious way they identify themselves. Which is why a bunch of 5 and 6 year olds will be far more rigid about what they regard as appropriate for girls and boys than their parents. And they'll quickly call other children out who are seen to step out of line.

That thing about calling a 2 year old boy a wuss, is really heartbreaking.

The brutalisation socialisation process starts so young.

Another opportunity to post this Tony Porter TED talk, about the Man-Box.

Don't Act Like a Man

I have two boys (6 & 2) and this sort of thing has been crossing my mind lately.

DS1 is very soft. sensitive and loves doing creative things. At preschool he was always in a princess outfit when I went to pick him up, heels and all, sometimes with a gun. Loved all things pink. It didn't bother me until people started commenting and I worried for him. At school he prefers playing with the girls, he just doesn't know how to relate to the rough and tumble of the boys. He's gone off pink though.

DS2, however, is a completely different kettle of fish. Even at 2 he is loud, stubborn, physical and I suppose would be considered very 'boyish'. He is drawn to playing with boys and idolises his older brother, half brother and male cousins.

I don't think I've done anything differently, and I've certainly not tried to mould them either way. They just seem to find their own path. With DS1 I'm trying to make him see that rough and tumble isn't 'naughty', and that anyone can be a friend. DS2, well he's young yet, but I don't want him trapped in dirt, noise, blue.

If anyone is interested in films that have strong female and male characters and role models, I would strongly recommend The Studio Ghibli films.

My Neighbor Totoro is perfect for very young children, and both main characters are girls.

Then There is Kiki's Delivery Service with a female lead.

Once they are a bit older then Spirited Away has a strong female lead, As does Howl's Moving Castle, Return of the Cats, Princess Mononoke and all the others in fact. And not in traditional female stereotypical roles either. All 'doers'.

The great thing about those films also is that no one is just the 'goodie' or just the 'badie', everyone has some good and some bad in them and their decisions are based on circumstances rather than just because they are 'evid' or 'mean' or 'badies'.

Yes, we have most of those, Totoro being my particular favourite.

and Ponyo.

Barry the behaviour of your DS2 fits in with the older male sibling thing I mentioned above. Your parenting is very similar to both boys (it can never be exactly the same because the circumstances in which you parented DS2 from infancy can never be the same as his older brother's. The presence of an older child makes a big difference to the amount and quality of attention etc. that is paid to the younger one. Not necessarily in a bad way, I hasten to add! But there will inevitably be differences) but DS2 has the older male sibling that your DS1 never had. That has been shown to make a big difference to behaviour.

Love Ponyo :)

When I was pg we built up a library of 'strong female character' storybooks - I'm an avid reader and we hadn't had many decent female character-led stories when I was younger.
DH was sure we were having a girl - I wasn't, but we'd elected to wait to find out - and so now DS has a lot of BRILLIANT books that show girls doing all kinds of things. As he likes sitting on my lap and reading with me, this is great. But I had to take a slightly different tack and fill the other gap- boys being loving and sweet and gentle, and being applauded for it.
We managed to find a few books that show, for example, nurturing male parents, and little boys in caring roles (the Little Bear books are a dad and son being charming to each other, btw, if anyone's looking for some) but it's hard to find - and there aren't as many great webpages built around providing boys with strong (by which I mean feminist-allied) male role-models.

I was all ready to raise a strong feminist daughter, give her all the encouragement and praise that I didn't get for being non-feminine and assertive... With a DS I am having to think a bit harder about what we're trying to model and what we're trying to achieve. Simply put, I have got experience of being a feminist-minded little girl and teenager and woman. I haven't got that experience of being/knowing a feminist-minded little boy, teenager, or man. I'm fortunate in that DH really is a decent feminist/ally, (not a Schwyzer feminist) but frankly the odds of someone ending up like him are slim in this world, without the right kind of encouragement.

Rambling, but so important to me. The idea of DS being socialized away from accessing and expressing all his feelings just breaks my heart.

Incidentally, we've been enjoying the topsy-turvy treatment of male/female stereotypes in Julia Donaldson's Zog - that's a good bedtime story!

Yes we have that one too :)

interseting about the younger boy thing mentioned, my ds1 is NOT and never has been a typical boy,hates football and all things sporty, is into science and reading and maths and generally a bit 'geeky' he is very smart and always gets on well with adults etc but never into rough and tumble play even as a toddler he just didnt like it.

ds2 total opposite, very much a 'boy' but also very kind, considerate, has great empathy and is hugely generous and loving.

ds3 is boyish but also loves pink and purple and sparkly things and fairies and tinkerbell, i thought he may grow out of this, esp once at school but nope he is 7 now and in yr 2 and still loves all things 'girly' which is fine in our house as we dont define things to be for girls/boys etc, he just likes what he likes and he also likes lego and light sabers etc but is a HUGE fan of tinkerbell.

ds4 is almost 4 (in 10 days) and i at the moment is def more like ds2, very physical and loves the thundercats and anything involving toy swords/guns and vehicles but he also loves his cuddly toys, lotso is his fave, which is funny as he says he doesnt like pink! and he is the first of my boys to talk about 'girl, boy' things he will sit with the argos catalogue and say he doesnt want naything on the girls pages etc and is very adament pink is for girls! i dont know where he has got this from as its not from home, i suspect pre-school but he has friends that are girls and boys and he does also have a toy cooker and a doll etc, that he plays with. time will tell but he def seems more 'boyish'

and then we have dd! she is only just 15mths and tbh she seems pretty much like the boys at the same age, she does like cuddly toys and will kiss and cuddle a toy doll, try and give it her dummy etc, but she also likes toy cars etc i wonder what the influence of having 4 big brothers will be on her? they play rough and tumble with her etc and i dont think they treat her any differently than if she was a boy, and dp and i dont make any differences for her being a girl, tho i confess i am enjoying buying girls clothes, not much pink, just lovely bright cheerful clothes, but then i have always put my boys in bright cheerful clothes as much as possible and stayed away from camo patterns and very 'boyish' clothes, they have worn lots of orange, red etc and some purple and pink, that they chose themselves.

i am just trying to raise all 5 of them to see all people as equal and to treat others as you would like to be treated yourself, to be polite and kind etc, feminism doesnt come into it, tho i am currenlty readin the caitlin moran book which is a great read so far! and so maybe my views will change? :)

good debate tho :)

and i am going to add this thread to my watch list so i can write down and look up some of the books/films mentioned here :)

Had to post and run earlier so it all came out a bit garbled :)

Immaculada, I hadn't seen your post as it took me so long to read and then write, but that all makes sense, thanks. DS2 does look to his brother a lot, who actually since his brother's arrival has taken more of an interest in cars and other things that bored him before. Probably part of that is just both of them having a playmate now.

It's interesting about the amount and quality of attention thing. I feel like the little one is getting more and better attention from a more chilled out/experienced mum, but I suppose not in comparison to his older brother at the same age.

I'm just hoping to raise them into men who respect people, much like 4madboys.

I am having problems with this now as my DS is now in a room with nursery with some kids who are reinforcing the boy/girl stereotypes. So he comes home saying 'Spiderman is just for boys' 'No, girls and boys can like Spiderman' (say I) 'NO MUMMY...' and so on.

I make an effort to refer to animals as female at least half of the time, too, to avoid establishing the generic masculine where every dog/cat you meet in the street is 'he'. That seems to work OK.

For all his insistence on boys' and girls' thing at the moment, though, DS asked tonight to have nail varnish on at the weekend.

blackcurrants would you mind posting your book recommendations?

I think it's easier to teach a child who will be in a position of the underdog to fight hard than it is to teach a child of privilege(sp) to be mindful and fair.

Sorry to crash but this is a real issue for me too as I have a DS aged 6. He is well balanced, has lots of friends of both sexes and seems to have a general sense of what injustice is and that includes sexism. Two of the things that help I think are making sure he does lots of sports (which he likes) with girls and boys and preferably with female teachers. My DS does swimming and karate, both taught by women and in mixed classes. He thinks it's normal that girls are just as strong and sporty as boys. We also make sure that we as parents don't fall into traditional gender roles around the house (so, we take turns driving, share housweork, pay bills in turns, don't have the same surname etc...) It can be tricky at times but my DS is lovely

I have a 4 year old son and I'm constantly trying to gently pick apart what other people say. He gets told 'oh that's a girl toy' etc by nursery staff ffs! Because it has a bit of pink on it. He gets confused because he wants to play with it, then feels he shouldn't. It makes me :( to have this already.

I just tell him there are no girl/boy toys and he can play with what he likes but it's still difficult to constantly reinforce

I am having problems with this now as my DS is now in a room with nursery with some kids who are reinforcing the boy/girl stereotypes. So he comes home saying 'Spiderman is just for boys' 'No, girls and boys can like Spiderman' (say I) 'NO MUMMY...' and so on.

Yes! This. Totally infuriating! I think I'm winning him over though

jenny60 that's a great idea - thank you. DH and I both do a martial art and we hope DS will too, (cos it's ACE) and I think seeing women being strong and sporty will be important, especially as all his 'caring/nurturing' role models apart from DH are female: all carers and teachers at his daycare are women. In fact, my DH is a middle school teacher and says that for most of his pupils he is the first male teacher they've ever ever had (when they're 11). So they see women caring and men doing other things - I want DS to see men caring and women leading in other ways as well. I will keep in mind female sports coaches, male music teachers, etc... that's a handy thought.

MavisG
DS is 19 months so we're currently obsessed with point-and-say books by DK (Shoes! Train! Ball! Duck! Flower!) but when we do stories, we love:
Man's Work which shows a dad and toddler son doing housework together. It's just a picture book, there are no words so you can chat about what they're doing together
You and Me, little bear is about a Daddy bear and son-bear going about their day together. Daddy bear does a lot of housework, son-bear feels a bit neglected and then they play together.
Can't you sleep, Little Bear? is very sweet- Daddy bear brings in bigger and brighter lights to his sleepless son until eventually he takes him outside the cave and shows him the bright moon and that actually, it's not that dark at night after all.
I've got William's Doll on my wishlist for when he's a bit older, and Free to be You and Me, too.
Someone gave us And Tango Makes Three about the two male penguins who raised a chick which is very sweet but far too many words for us at present - I'm looking forward to reading it again in a year or two, when DS will sit still for more than 0.5 seconds at a time!

ooh, MavisG in looking for the titles of some of the books we have I found this web page which has some other cool looking ideas. I think I'm going to get "Father Gander" nursery rhymes, which include female characters doing stuff, and probably Hug Me too.
Why do these threads always end in me excitedly buying books!? :D

Blackcurrants - thank you for that list, I have bought 'man's work' and love the look of 'free to be me and you'

I think that Posie really articulated my initial panic about raising a feminist child when she wrote
"I think it's easier to teach a child who will be in a position of the underdog to fight hard than it is to teach a child of privilege to be mindful and fair."
That's exactly what I thought when I thought "how on earth do I do this?"

Luckily I remember as a child being really invested in fairness, so I hope that some of that will be present in DS, and we can nurture and fan that flame. DH talk about perspective and (white/male/hetero) privilege a lot in our relationship, so I hope that becomes something we pay attention to in our family and in our general discussions. As it is I am conscious that I am raising a white American male, what Robin Morgan called
"Potentially the most powerful, deadly creature
of the species"
in her heartbreaking poem "Monster."

Yay! I hope you enjoy it. Man's work is very sweet. DS is just starting to want to push the brush or duster around when his dad does, so I encourage all of this!
Free to be Me and You is a book that a lot of my American feminist friends credit with making them liberated - as in "oh, we were that late seventies, Free-To-Be-Me-And-You generation - so of course we are feminists." I hope it works its magic in my house!

Excellent list blackcurrants, thankyou for those!