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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

Parenting a boy is a feminist minefield!

246 replies

MadameBoolala · 06/03/2012 09:32

I am a feminist.

I have one child, a 4 year old boy, and mainly post in conception as we have been ttc number 2 for 2 years without success now. However I am venturing onto these boards as I feel negatively judged today by someone, and my parenting is being called into question.

I won't have time to post again until I come back from work tonight- but I'm wondering aloud today if it's easier to be a feminist and a parent of a girl...

OP posts:
exoticfruits · 19/03/2012 19:03

I agree there isn't a third way. If you want to have a DC you can't have 2 high flying career people. It is up to the couple-a lot decide to have the man at home.
It must be difficult if you are a 'career person' -in my case it was simple I found being at home, bringing up my DCs way more exciting than paid employment.
I also don't think it necessary to have a male role model for a male DC BUT if they actively want one I don't think it fair to deny their feelings.

Xenia · 19/03/2012 19:26

Loads and loads of people have two successful career people in a marriage. It's just defeatists or losers or por housewives and non feminists who like to perpetuate the myth that the one true way to bring up a family is mummy at home scrubbing the floors and daddy out earnings.

NewRowSees · 19/03/2012 19:35

Sorry to butt in, just trying to follow the conversation as this is something I've been thinking about recently.

exotic, I'm wondering what you mean by "If you want to have a DC you can't have 2 high flying career people"? And why is that not an option? Does both parents having a career mean that we're less able to follow feminist ideals? (Both DP and I currently work full-time, but we're constantly talking about other alternatives). Thanks!

exoticfruits · 19/03/2012 19:44

If you have 2 high flying careers most of the childcare has to go to a paid employee-you are simply not there.
Why do you have to scrub floors all the time Xenia. You have free time, you can read, study, have hobbies-do all sorts of exciting things! Much better than being stuck in some office doing boring things with other people's money or legal stuff etc.

Original poster
MadameBoolala · 19/03/2012 19:45

I don't know anybody who thinks that the one true way to bring up a family is to have a Mum at home and a Dad out working. But I also know people who have it that way and are very happy with it. That doesn't make them non-feminists does it?

OP posts:
exoticfruits · 19/03/2012 19:48

Sorry-I am getting a bit carried away-I just get crabby with Xenia's view of life. I wouldn't have her life for any money.

sunshineandbooks · 19/03/2012 19:54

Xenia, while I agree with you that we want to lose the idea that the only or best way to successfully bring up a family is with the father as the breadwinner and the mother as the SAHM, I'm not entirely sure what you're saying.

Are you implying that anyone who doesn't have a high-flying career is a defeatist or a loser? (That'll be most of the population then).

Or is just those who sacrifice career for children? And do you include people who prioritise family over work or do you just mean SAHPs? Didn't your X deliberately take the place of secondary earner to help you further yours? Granted he was still a high earner himself, but being a high-earning secondary earner is far removed from most people's first earner salary and allows huge flexibility in terms of emergency childcare arrangements that just aren't there for the majority of the population.

Or is it only SAHPs you have a problem with? In which case, why? Since a child has to be cared for and in many cases may be being breastfed, what on earth is wrong with the parent fulfilling that role if she wants to? No woman should be forced to stay at home due to some patriarchal nonsense about ideal womanhood, but neither should chasing the dollar be put before a woman's desire to care for her own child.

Original poster
MadameBoolala · 19/03/2012 19:56

I don't think you need to apologise for your views exotic - nobody should be feeling attacked for their choices. I defend to the hilt anybody who chooses to stay at home to bring up a child OR someone who wants to have a career.

I don't want this thread to turn into a stay at home/ career debate though. I just want to have some debate with other parents of boys and share some ideas really. Working full time instead of part time is not something I'll be doing until DS starts school in September. And that's got fuck all to do with feminism!

OP posts:
Original poster
MadameBoolala · 19/03/2012 20:02

Newrowsees I think it's about making sure that whoever does your childcare shares your ideals. A pro- feminist Nanny for example - or a switched on nursery. DS's are doing a project called 'jobs we do' at the moment. I ahd a chat with them about gender roles and they were very keen to point out to me that they're mixing it up as they should be - having a woman as a firefighter. encouraging the boys to dress up as nurses when they did hospitals etc.

OP posts:
InmaculadaConcepcion · 19/03/2012 20:06

What sunshine said.
Again.

exoticfruits · 19/03/2012 20:09

People do what suits them.There are all sorts of different solutions and one isn't superior to another. Xenia couldn't stand my life-I couldn't stand hers.Luckily we don't have to put it to the test. One isn't superior to another.

Original poster
MadameBoolala · 19/03/2012 20:21

Yeah, and what sunshine said :o

OP posts:
InmaculadaConcepcion · 19/03/2012 20:22

I like the sound of that nursery you mention, MadameB!

Original poster
MadameBoolala · 19/03/2012 20:39

They are very lovely, we're really lucky :)

OP posts:
swallowedAfly · 20/03/2012 08:14

i'd personally hate a life of full time working then running around chasing my tail at either end of the day to do pick ups and drop offs from childcare and trying to spend some quality time with ds before bedtime when in fact i'd just be stressed and knackered and no fun whatsoever. i wouldn't last long before i burnt out completely.

that's me.

i like being at home. i just do. i like having the freedom to write my own schedule and organise my life according to my energy levels and how i feel. ok some of that is because of my health problems but it's also my temperament. i enjoy people and being 'out there' but in smallish doses. other people thrive on the 'out there' stuff and hate being on their own or living quietly. people are different. i'd love to see a world where people could organise by their temperaments and strengths. there is nothing wrong with taking different roles i just don't want them to be prescribed by something as idiotic and indiscriminate as gender.

my friends husband has similar health problems and temperament to me - he couldn't do full time work any more than i can. so his wife works not quite full time and he's at home with the baby plus working on his own small photography business. it works for them. they've also chosen to move back to her home town to be near her family who are able to offer support and occasional childcare and where they have more friends about so that he isn't isolated by staying at home as he's part of a community of friends.

people can make all sorts of decisions and arrangements to suit them. to prescribe one arrangement for everyone (which happens to be what you personally enjoy) and write off everyone who doesn't follow it as 'losers' is ridiculous and facist-esque as well as incredibly egotistical. how hard is it to understand that not everyone is like you and that doesn't mean they're shit!?!?

InmaculadaConcepcion · 20/03/2012 08:21

Quite, SaF.

exoticfruits · 20/03/2012 10:18

Exactly,swallowedaFly-nail on the head!

5madthings · 20/03/2012 10:30

exactly SAF

we had ds1 whilst we were still at uni, i took a year out whilst dp finished his degree, and then after finishing my degree we wanted no 2, it made sense for dp to work as i was bfeeding and as we wanted a large family it was easiest for him to work and me to stay at home. we may in the future reverse rolls so dp stays at home and i work but WE always wanted one parent to be a sahm parent, its what works for us. i have no issue with those who choose to do it differently we just do what works for us and i wouldnt change it for the world.

wintersnight · 20/03/2012 12:40

MadameB, I heard my 4 year old son playing a game this morning and it made me think of this thread. Two of his (male) lego stormtroopers were happily co parenting their young son; cooking his dinner, taking him to pre school and teaching him how to ride his bike.

blackcurrants · 20/03/2012 12:55

winters that is very sweet!

DS has taken to doing "Mixxxxing" and 'coooking!" on his little toy stove while DH cooks, and I am often brought pretend food to eat. I find this a hopeful start!

MadameB I have quite 'masculine' geeky hobbies that I share with DH - comics, xbox - one of the things we have in common and one of the reasons we got together, I suppose. So DS will certainly be surrounded by a lot of that. But he will also learn to knit and sew, which is something else we both enjoy doing ... so I think that it's about the variety and importance of activities. If the activities traditionally coded as masculine are seen as more valid in some way than the ones traditionally coded as feminine, then we'll have a problem. But hopefully in our house we can begin a little resistance to those ideas.

The way we look at it, DS is going to be surrounded by sexist attitudes, always. So our job is to help him see them, know them for what they are, and resist, resist, resist... I expect to do a lot of talking about characters in comics and tv and stuff for the next twenty years!

Original poster
MadameBoolala · 20/03/2012 14:00

I love it winters :)

DS started doing the washing up a few days ago. For fun. Brilliant!

OP posts:
Xenia · 20/03/2012 20:11

No, my children';s father made no career sacrifice at all. Plenty of couples don't. This idea that it's impossible to work full time and have children is used by misogynists to keep women at home syaing it's it not possible, far far too hard to think you could possibly trouble your pretty little head with being a surgeon, earn instead pin money at most whilst your jhusband works as that is the only thing possible for a woman or even the other way round is unfair on men - if your wife works you must work part time because it's impossible to work full time and have a family. It's just not true.
Families up and down the country now and in the past have had two workers. It works fine.

sunshineandbooks · 20/03/2012 20:24

Of course it's not impossible to work full-time and have children. No one is saying that. However, unless you are earning significantly more than the national average salary or you have willing family or friends who can support you, it is very difficult to balance work with children and in some cases impossible to pursue a career aggressively, particularly if you have children before you have reached a high enough level (many women decline in fertility by this point).

To claim that this isn't the case is to deny the real experiences of the majority of women and pretty much every piece of research and statistical evidence there is. It may not be the reality among your particular circle, but yours is a very privileged existence far removed from the reality of most. You deserve all your success but to assume that it is within the reach of others displays an arrogance of breathtaking proportions.

Xenia · 20/03/2012 20:34

To go on and on about how hard it is for women to work full time and have children is one of the worst things that is ever done to women. It makes them think they need to earn pin mnoey on 2 hours a day of work to be proper women and do right by their families and it keeps them down and out of positions of power.

It is sexist to the core as no one ever writes similar articles about men. It is completely founded within sexist marriages. It is only hard because the other half isn't pulling his weight.

Most women give them selves very low earning expectations presumably because they had mothers on low wages or who were housewives so they will aim to be a nurse not a surgeon. Instead we need to enthuse them to realise even if they are a cleaner they could run a nationwide cleaning business, not tell them again and again how hard is life to work and have a family when in fact life is huge fun with that balance. It's those at home or with the 3 horus a day on £6k an hour jobs who haev the dull and hard lives without anything to aim for and no hope of ever improving their situation and their only hope of enhancement is through keeping their husband happy in bed so that he keeps food on the table and buys them things.

InmaculadaConcepcion · 20/03/2012 20:36

Okay Xenia, but not everyone can afford a ticket to your world. Or even wants one.

Now, how about you give us more of your tips for feminist parenting of boys (beyond both parents working full-time to serve as the only possible role models). I think that's what MadameB and others would most appreciate on this thread.