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Original poster

Is this rape?

27 replies

24joy · 05/03/2012 22:24

was thinking the other night (whilst a bit pissed) that when i lost my virginity (20 years ago) it was a bit crap. Was on a campsite with my parents and best friend and we were 16. I was pretty 'innocent' whilst my friend certainly wasn't iykwim! I ended up with her 'dates' mate. I playfully pushed him into the sea (it was late at night) and he got cross then said we should go for a shower. Anyway, to cut a long story short - he's on top of me trying to push it in whilst i pathetically say no repeatedly (but really pathetically, almost jokingly (but beleive me- i wasnt having fun)). Then he came, got up and we awkwardly said goodbye and he left me in the shower. Then i eventually found my friend and her mate and they said they'd seen the guy who had said "yeah i shagged her senseless then told her to fuck off".

Always felt crap about sex. Do you think this has anything to do with it. Was it rape or was it just a shit first time?

OP posts:
crystalglasses · 05/03/2012 22:27

It was rape, although it may not have fitted the legal definition 20 years ago.

Original poster
24joy · 05/03/2012 22:35

I never tried to make him stop though - i just felt a bit helpless but more from a 'i dont like this but here i am' kind of way. I never actually said "get off me" really assertively - i just sort of knew i wasnt 'in control'. Can you 'feel' raped even if you weren't legally - is there such a thing?

OP posts:
BasilRathbone · 05/03/2012 22:39

24joy, you were raped. The criminal justice system has been set up to tell you that you weren't raped, but you were.

It wasn't your fault, you didn't do anything wrong and it wasn't your job to stop it happening. It was the fault of the boy who raped you.

Have you phoned Rape Crisis? If you feel the need to talk about this to someone in RL, they are there to help you, however many years later it is. No-one will tell you you weren't raped, no-one will blame you or expect you to do anything about it. They'll just listen and support you.

Original poster
24joy · 05/03/2012 22:53

But i went there voluntarily and i let him do it. I just felt 'helpless' in a kind of people pleaser kind of way. He was obviously not a nice guy (he got very angry when i pushed him into the sea) but i wander whether he was the start of my sex issues (so to speak) or whether the way i let him just control me is all part of the problem.

Like i said literally 20 years later (sitting alone thinking about things at the weekend!) i suddenly thought - god was that a 'form' of rape?

OP posts:
PlumpDogPillionaire · 05/03/2012 23:04

Obvious advice, maybe, 24joy, but you need to talk this through properly and in context with a good therapist.

barristermum · 05/03/2012 23:15

The offence of rape, even 20 years ago, is penetration of your vagina by his penis when you were not consenting and he had no reasonable belief that you were consenting. You said no, repeatedly. He knew this. He raped you.

I'm so sorry.
It isn't too late to report it to the police and they are much better trained now than perhaps they were then. Whether such an act would actually help you come to terms with what happened is a matter for you to decide.

PlumpDogPillionaire · 05/03/2012 23:23

barristermum, do you really think there'd be much to be gained from joy24 reporting what happened to the police?

Quodlibet · 05/03/2012 23:26

24joy I'm really sorry that happened to you.

I wondered whether you'd find this blog post illuminating - she talks about why women often don't 'fight back' even when we are deeply upset by something being done to us - how we are raised to be compliant, to not make a scene and to allow men to physically control us, as happened to you. It really struck a chord with me.

I hope that you get any support you feel you need.

Original poster
24joy · 05/03/2012 23:33

Thank you everyone for responding. Luckily i dont feel very 'raw' emotionally as it happened so long ago. Just pretty sad that i maybe should have addressed how i felt earlier in my life.

Barristermum - you say 'he had no reasonable belief you were consenting' but is that true? I didnt show any physical resistance - i just almost knew it was something i had to get on with iykwim? Isnt it just a reflection on my lack of assertiveness?

Oh i dont know. All i know if that were my daughter and not me i would have comforted her all night afterwards. Can we be raped mentally if not legally is probably what i'm asking myself... (and you guys!)

OP posts:
Original poster
24joy · 05/03/2012 23:41

God quadlibet - that link explains everything. Everything makes sense suddenly

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PlumpDogPillionaire · 05/03/2012 23:43

joy24 - I think I understand why you're thinking about this in the context of whether or not you were raped in legal terms. One of the problems with that is that it's sort of asking whether you'd have secured a conviction - then or now.
I'm not sure that thinking in those terms is very helpful - partly because it was 20 years ago, partly because of the problems with the criminal justice system then and now.
I think you're trying to make sense of the situation in the context of your life, feelings and experience before and after it.
Quodlibet's link might be useful - but it sounds as if really, if possible, you need to talk in detail about your experiences - not just this one - with a good therapist who can help you work through your understanding and feelings about the past. (Which isn't to say that it won't also help to talk on here...)
Yes, I think you were raped; I don't think that means you'd necessarily be likely to secure a conviction on the basis of what you describe, then or now.
But I think that the point is that this event is like the 'breaking point' for you of issues about boundaries, control, etc. I think it's those things you need to be working rather than legal definitions.

PlumpDogPillionaire · 05/03/2012 23:43

x-posts!

Original poster
24joy · 05/03/2012 23:50

Yes your right plumpdogpillionaire - im not interested in convictions at all. A lightbulb just went off and i thought - god - why have i never realised the loss of my virginity was perhaps a bit more than a 'bit shit'. Ive always found sex a bit 'attacky' iykwim. Maybe this is why?

Think i'll get some therapy..

You have all been very supportive. Am very touched.

OP posts:
barristermum · 05/03/2012 23:52

24joy, whether there would be benefit for you in reporting this is hugely a matter for you. The investigative and legal process is undoubtedly hard, stressful and can ultimately be disappointing, but for many who have been the victim of such a crime a chapter in their lives remains incomplete until all avenues have been exhausted.

As to his "reasonable belief" (as the law terms it) - how could he reasonably believe you were consenting when you were telling him you were not? It's not as tho past experience would have led him to conclude you liked to pretend reluctance.

I think from your comments the greater concern is your need to feel heard and understood. As far as the criminality of what he did goes, it really is relatively simple. There is no need for you to blame yourself, or to try desperately to absolve him from the responsibility of what he did. You were wronged. In every way. It was not your fault.

Dworkin · 05/03/2012 23:52

I'm sorry this happened to you. And the link is illuminating. Her blog is a good primer for all those who think 'was I raped?'

If you think you were raped then you were raped. You know how you feel, even 20 years later. It's a long time to mull over things.

(((hugs)))

PlumpDogPillionaire · 05/03/2012 23:56

barristermum - unfortunately there have been many cases (pre-SOA 2003) where despite victims repeatedly saying no - and in some cases where they did try to fight off their attackers - no conviction was secured.
I'm guessing you're a barrister (?) so must know about criminal standard of evidence, etc.

barristermum · 06/03/2012 00:08

Plumpdog, absolutely. I didn't go into likelihood of conviction because the burden and standard of proof in a criminal trial means that whether it could be proved is a different issue from whether 24joy was actually raped and she was asking whether she had been raped.

I think, albeit more slowly than we may wish, juries are changing. I hope we are learning not to judge victims negatively just to make ourselves feel secure in the hope we would never have to endure what they did.

But there is no need for 24joy to start a crusade (unless you wish to). Just allow yourself the solace of calling what happened to you by its name.

sunshineandbooks · 06/03/2012 00:14

Yes, it's rape. Sad I'm so, so sorry you had that experience and I hope you manage to find a way to get past it and have the life you deserve.

leftwingharpie · 06/03/2012 08:42

That's a really good link, quod. I'm so sorry you had to experience this OP. I agree that you were raped.

Quodlibet · 06/03/2012 08:52

24joy I'm glad you found that piece of writing illuminating. She says something that's at the same time so obvious and so invisible, doesn't she?

I'm really sad that this wanker boy has primed your introduction to sexual life and left you feeling that sex is 'attacky', and I hope that one of the by-products of you re-evaluating all this is that you are able to reclaim the potential pleasure in sexual interaction for yourself in whatever way feels good and right to you. You dont have to be a frightened and compliant 16 year old on a campsite any more.

Sex is a joyful thing when we are able (because we are given a real choice) to welcome people in to share something intimate with us, not when people force themselves past our boundaries, mental and physical.

All the best to you. You are a strong person to confront this difficult thing.

Original poster
24joy · 06/03/2012 10:54

Thank you everyone for taking the time to help me understand. Its amazing what strength i have found from what you have all said. I'm going to say goodbye to that 'frightened and compliant 16 year old' - she has lurked ever since in all my relationships.. Loved that article - think it might have just saved my life.

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bejeezus · 06/03/2012 11:23

just wanted to say joy that I have had similar thoughts about what happened to me 20 years ago. I did say no, but my doubts about whether it was rape have come because he was an ex boyfriend with whom I had recently had consensual sex. And also because of the way I reacted and acted afterwards...I didnt get angry etc and even gave him a lift home!

What has helped me to see it for what it is...is to reverse the roles. If you put yourself into his shoes that night...then you can see clearly he had no regard for your wishes, he knew you werent consenting. It was rape

Beachcomber · 06/03/2012 18:05

I just wanted to wish you all the best in moving onwards with this and also to thank you for posting this thread. I am very sorry to hear of what you went through and yes, you were raped.

Thank you for posting this because your sharing of a horrible experience shows exactly why we need a total change to how society defines consent. Consent should be happy and enthusiastic and young men should be taught that if their partner is not happy and enthusiastic, the chances are they are raping her.

Young men also need taught taught that sex is not something they 'get' from women or 'do' to women.

What the man in question said about you is just awful Angry.

You did manage to say no and he went ahead anyway and raped you.

Nyac · 06/03/2012 18:27

You said no, you didn't want it, it was rape. He knew what he was doing.

Believe yourself.

thegingerwhinger · 06/03/2012 21:54

I agree, it was rape.

I've also recently realised that I was raped once. I was at university and I met a guy and took him home. We started having sex but I quickly sobered up and changed my mind and told him to stop, which he wouldn't do. My flatmate eventually heard what was going on and intervened and threw him out. I put it down to stupidness on my part - drunk, took him home, willingly started having intercourse - and thought no more of it. But it was rape.

Completely agree withbeachcomber's comment : young men should be taught that if their partner is not happy and enthusiastic, the chances are they are raping her

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