What would you tell an 11 YO about feminism?

[AgentZigzag]

Last summer I gave DD a very brief introduction to feminism, we were out on a walk and without a hint of a lecture () I told her about a couple of perspectives, how women were treated in the past/are treated in different cultures etc.

It has changed the way she thinks because a couple of times she's asked whether I thought something was sexist, and I've pointed a couple of things out to her from the news and stuff.

What can I add to that to make it meaningful to her do you think?

Or should I not bring it up specifically again and just leave it with the introduction?

Depends if you mean feminism or Feminism, I guess.

I think that teaching children to ask "Why?" is a good tactic, not just about feminism, although it stand me in good stead in that line. It's not just about whether something is sexist, but why it is i.e. the reasoning behind the action, not the explanation. I would love that a generation is being raised to go "Huh?" at some of the more obviously sexist/misogynistic stuff in our culture, because it makes no sense to them.

And feeling particularly jaded tonight, so am a bit loathe to suggest courses of action/discussion that might lead your daughter down that line.

Is she asking for more info?

If not than I would not say anything tbh, teenagers just shut down at the mere implication of being preached to. I'm sure you wouldn't deliberately but even the most well meaning parent can fail.

The best way of introducing her to feminism is to have a relationship where discussions take place. Where she can ask you questions or bring up things that have confused or puzzled or angered her, and you can help her find her way through the maze. You can help her see the inequalities and the wrongness of some responses, and encourage her to find her own path and understanding.
I found lectures about my beliefs on anything, expecting that she would be angered by the same issues or insisting that she should read stuff really doesn't work as a plan.

So you've explained basic facts about how what we might 'reasonably' take for granted (property ownership, votes, etc.) were generally denied to women until comparatively recently and hard fought for. Surely that in itself gives a basis for DD starting to understand the collateral damage that takes place when any group is deprived of basic rights.
After then, surely (for an 11 y.o.) it's mostly a question of understanding about fairness and choice in realtion to the above - if that makes sense.
And as others have said, encouraging consistent questioning and engaging in honest discussion is about as good as you can get.

Why not just ask her what she thinks, what 'difficulties' she has encountered? Eleven seems rather young for deep political discussion.

She comes from a different generation, which is closer to equality than the one we grew up in, however much people may dislike that fact. She has grown up with the vote, laws against sexual discrimination, laws against racial discrimination, gay marriage, gay clergy, gay cabinet ministers, a black first family in the USA, a female prime minister and cabinet ministers in the UK. All a bit different from the 60s and 70s (I assume we are the same age, as our kids are). As she grows up, things will keep improving for everyone. Let her keep an open mind, rather than trapping her in the politics of your youth.

I am a man, so I expect this to be shot down in flames, but I have a daughter, and I have to consider these things myself.

I'd rather lead by examples rather than a sit-down chat. As things happen, use the opportunity to explain why something may not be fair to a certain group of people or how things used to be in a certain example. You are far more likely to be successful if your kids are already interested in the issue at hand than if you preach at them.

'Eleven seems rather young for deep political discussion.' Not sure I agree. My 11 year old asked about feminism the other day - and they're both v able to identify sexism (including, for instance, households in which women are expected to do all the domestic work). Eleven year olds get terribly fired up by Big Issues, I am finding. Actually, so are eight year olds. I have an eight year old who is currently trying to get her school converted to being a Fair Trade school... and no I didn't instigate this.

Tell her that when she is 18 she will be able to vote on how her country is run, but if she had been born 100 years ago it would not have been like this, and her great grandma didn't have the vote either.

Tell her how women in our country died for the right to vote; under the hooves of racehorses and in prison.

Tell her that in some countries in the world some people still aren't allowed to vote because they were born female.

As she grows up, things will keep improving for everyone.

Erm, yes, let's hope so... But what makes you so certain about this, Sanjeev? (If there's some secret behind your optimism, please let me in on it, it must feel great... )

Surely the point is not to try and immerse some poor 11 y.o. beyond her depth in 'political discussion' but to help her develop an awareness of the world around her so that she understands her own potential power in it, rather than becoming worn down or complacent in the belief that injustices are 'just how things are'. 11 is a great age to up the stakes on the sorts of discussions that develop social awareness - and FWIW, I don't see any reason why it's only parents of daughters who should be thinking about discussing feminism.

CuttedUp - I agree, maybe because I see the fight for voting rights as the absolute basics of discussing feminism. (Mary Wollstonecraft perhaps a bit heavy for an 11 y.o? )
You could also talk about rights to property ownership, formal education, etc., other groups who were denied these...
And you could use discussions about films, books etc. as ways of talking about these things.

Disclaimer: If I'm sounding scarily worthy, I'm certain you can find ways of doing this whilst still having a laugh, AZZ.

PlumpDog - the biggest reason that things improve is because attitudes change. My great gran's generation were the ones throwing themselves under horses and winning the vote. My gran's generation enabled this country's victory in WWII by working in factories and on the land as well as any man. My mum's generation won legislation for equal pay. It also saw the first female PM.

My wife's generation sees women in cabinet (Theresa May, Sayeeda Warsi, Caroline Spelman, JUstine Greening, Cheryl Gillan), at the top of the police force, CEO's of multi-national companies (Ginni Rometti, Carol Bartz and Carly Fiorina in my own industry, IT). Then there is Shami Chakrabarti. Further afield, there are examples like Condoleeza Rice, Hillary Clinton, Martha Lane Fox and Oprah Winfrey.

My son will not find anything odd or untoward about women like these in positions of power and influence as he grows up. It becomes the norm. If my daughter wants to achieve in almost any field, there are women there now who have lead the way, done the hard yards. That is why I am confident that she can achieve all she wants, even without my crystal ball . She is 15, at an all girls's school, with a female head, female deputy head, female head of year....she has all the examples she needs right now!

I totally disagree that the generation our daughters are growing up in now are closer to equality than our generation was.

When I was a teenager, sexism and racism were both considered disgusting by those on the left and sort of OK by those on the right.

Now, racism is considered disgusting by nearly everyone except those on the very far right and sexism is considered either a bit of a larf or irrelevant by everyone except feminists.

I didn't grow up with a male peer group who had had their sexuality already affected by seeing hard core porn on the internet, long before they ever had their first kiss. I also didn't grow up in an environment which actively declared that the battle for equality was over and had been won and anyone who was still fighting for it, was imagining structural inequality.

If only history were just a nice neat straight progressive line. Life would be so much easier and we wouldn't have to worry for our daughters or our sons. But it's not like that.

I'd just let her ask the questions she wants and answer them the best way you can, without labouring the point.

Do you read other sections of MN, Sanjeev?

What if your daughter fails to end up as CEO of BP or whatever and end up succumbing to the pernicious effects of the society that still exists around us and marries a man who thinks that it is her job to keep the house ship-shape and that she is the default carer for any offspring they have, therefore denying her much freedom and requiring her to assess her salary against childcare costs and decide it's not worth it, whilst stressing about whether she is beautiful/slim/fashionable/feminine enough for public consumption? Cos that if far more likely, tbh.

We will just have to agree to disagree then Basil, or we will take this off topic. I will point out to my daughter all the achievers that I mentioned, rather than concentrate only on the negatives. That is no way to inspire anyone. I don't think sexism is seen as irrelevant or funny. Feminism might be, but that is an image problem that the movement has.

AyeRobot - today, my daughter has witnessed me wash the dishes, cut the grass, do two lots of washing, do the ironing (whist watching the rugby ), drive my son to and from boxing and make the tea (roast dinner) - all before I went for 2 hours swimming training. I am not asking for praise here. She has been brought up in a family where we all do our share. My son also helped prepare tea. They both iron their school uniforms.

If after 18 years of seeing that there is no such division of men's and women's domestic chores at home; if her female teachers cannot inspire her; if powerful, intelligent, influential women in public life cannot inspire her; if she settles for the kind of arsehole you describe, then I might just throw myself off a bridge...taking him with me.

Really. You don't think sexism is seen as funny.

Then how do you account for this generation's spate of Bernard Mannings?

The Jimmy Carr's, Frank Skinners, David Baddiels - all those detestable willy-waving misogynists who are given airtime in spite of the fact that they regularly trot out sexist shit and pretend that it's a joke, just like Bernard Manning used to do with racism.

My 8yr old DD knows women didn't have the vote in the past, but also has a grasp of how things are for contemporary women in other cultures or under other regimes too.
We also had an interesting chat about how Adele was famous for her cracking voice, but Rhianna for her scanty frocks.
DD, "It's a shame she wiggles her boobs so much because then no-one's taking any notice of if she's got a nice voice or not"

I think you are overestimating your influence and underestimating peer pressure and that of the culture around us. And ignoring the fact that many men still hold very dodgy views about women (see the other thread about the bike forum). With a smattering off "it's the parents fault if a woman ends up in a shitty relationship".

I hope you are well-placed in your confidence.

I hesitate to post this because it may upset you Sanjeev and that really isn't my intention, but 25% of women get raped or sexually assaulted in their lives and all the role modelling and the education in the world, doesn't actually immunise them from the unpredictable loss of moorings that that can result in. You can't role model away that risk factor, which isn't present for your son.

Basil, I have seen the 25 per cent figure before. Is that a UK figure, European or world-wide?

It's UK AFAIK - the British Crime Survey.

In some countries it's higher - I've seen 1 in 3, but I think that's the USA. I could be wrong though.

Well you are right - there isn't much I can do about crime figures. I know my son is at a far higher risk of being attacked/beaten up/stabbed than my daughter. Teen boys are the highest risk group.

Other than teach them to be sensible about where they go, who with and how to behave, I cannot wrap either of them in cotton wool. It can be a harsh, shitty world, and a constant source of worry for parents.

My god-daughter is 11. I regularly have feminist discussions with her, though I doubt she's even aware that they are 'feminist'. Whenever I see her doing anything or saying anything that I think is the result of sexism, I ever so gently challenge her on it. Not in a confrontational way because I remember adults doing that to me and hating it, but in a "why do you think that is?" or "what do you think would happen if?" sort of way.

It's both scary and wonderful to watch - scary because it makes you realise just how all-pervasive sexist norms still are, and wonderful because it makes you realise how only a little guidance can result in girls really starting to think about things in a different way. Sad truth is though that you have to do this ALL THE TIME to even begin to undermine the constant bombardment of messages received from wider society, particularly the tween culture currently aimed at this age group.

Sanjeev - that's not a bad tactic to take with your DS because it is on the street with his peers where he is most at risk of being attacked. With your DD however, the biggest risk to her will be in her own home. Most women are raped or assaulted by someone known to them, quite often a partner or ex-partner. Sadly, they don't come with "I'm a rapist/woman-beater" signs round their necks and there is very little a woman can do to minimise her risk other than refuse to ever have any kind of relationship, platonic or otherwise, with a man who she will trust, which isn't really a realistic option for most.

No your son isn't at higher risk of being attacked than your daughter.

When they calculate those figures, they take sexual violence out of them.

So they completely skew them.

When you put sexual assault back in, your dd is far more likely to be the victim of violence, than your son.

And as Sunshine says, your DD has no way of knowing who is going to sexually assault her.

Although a good starting point, is to advise her to have nothing to do with boys who openly express misogynist opinions and to not be alone with them. And to only be friends with boys who express respectful attitudes to girls and women.