"Miss goes missing on French official forms" - let's do the same here!

[Alittlefeminist]

Hurray for French feminists who have pushed through a revision of women's titles: www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/feb/22/mademoiselle-removed-from-french-official-forms :)

Let's do the same!

I believe that it is very difficult to have an objective debate about these titles, because after a certain age (12? 16? 21?... Who knows) we have all become sufficiently conditioned by society to the point where we do associate certain gravitas (or otherwise) with these titles.
I have 3 year old daughter, and were I to have a son as well, I would love them to grow up in a world where the same rules apply to both of them. That is really all I want. So if my daughter is to be Miss from birth, and my imaginary son is to be Mr from birth, then neither one's title should change due to marriage. Take marriage out of the mix entirely, we should not "address" (which is the main application of title) people differently because of marriage. Debatable as to whether one's title should change due to age or education or gender either but that is a separate discussion. Baby steps.

At the moment we have the choice, I choose to be a Miss but then I also choose not to be married. I am fundamentally opposed to marriage as I see it as a man's invention (religion, property rights, rights to ascertain lineage etc)

When we marry,if we choose to marry we also have the choice to change our from of address if we wish. It's a choice, men have no such choice.

On a personal note I make a statement which I am happy to make every time I tick the "miss" box. Happy to be attached as I am, I am happy for you to know, I am not married.

On a more political note I think all titles, Dr, Miss, Mr,lady,Sir should be replaced with something class and gender neutral.

My father was discussing his travels round Africa this morning (again......) and said that he was really uncomfortable with the indigenous population addressing him as "master"

I haven't read all of the posts - some are brilliant!! (I have read those, of course) but I agree with the French - on official forms, why not just a title to say if you are male or female, ie Mr or Ms (or Madam, which used to be the common term used). In some Asian countries, the women keep their maiden names officially even when married, so you're still Madam Smith even if you've married Mr Jones, and it's not a feminist move, it's just the way it is, and also a way of being able to get access quickly to a person's records from birth to adulthood to death, without wondering if she has changed to a married name.

Incidentally, I noticed that when I visited France, I was automatically called Mademoiselle when under the age of about 35, and it switched to Madame when I was in my late thirties, regardless of whether they knew I was married or not (they continued to call me Mademoiselle in the shops even when my wedding ring was in plain view.) Not sure whether that is better than being defined by marital status! But yes, I would be happy to have just one possible official title per person on forms, and also to do away with Dr, Professor, Sir, Dame, Reverend, etc. It's not a tea party, you're just doing your taxes or going through the airport!

I don't know why forms ask for our title when then ask for gender!

I'm MrsMaidenName and this causes confusion with people who don't understand you can, or why you would, keep your own name when you marry. I don't want to be called either Miss or Ms, but somehow Mrs doesn't fit the bill either.

Furthermore, I always give people my first name and ask them to use it.

Your marital status does not determine your chosen title these days.. YOU DO

Even if some married women want to use Miss and some divorcees want to use Mrs, the words mean what they mean, and you are borrowing those meanings when you adopt the title.

I really can't remember whether there was a marital status box or one asking you to list all your other names - but if there had been I will have ticked No and None, so don't know why I got a phone call.

A form I filled in recently (job application)

had "Mr/ Mrs/ Miss/ Ms/ Civil Partnership/ Other" on it.

I was very (raised eyebrow) at that ...

since when has "Civil Partnership" been a title ??!

NO but civil partnership infers status (positive or negative) as does every other title. Which adds more weight to the idea of dispensing with all titles including those that infer social/class status.

It (the application form I mentioned) was just a bit like ....

If you're a man that's all we want to know ...

but if you're a woman can we be nosey about your private life

JugglingWithTangentialOranges - I agree, that's super nosey. And what if a man wanted to tick both Mr and Civil Partnership, etc etc......doesn't sound like a place I'd want to work at (unless I have no other options, haha).

Rhino: you are naive if you think it's just about preferred mode of address. That might genuinely be why you are being asked by a specific person or form, but there is a much wider assumption at work even if you can't admit it.

And yes, when the bank tells me I "must" be mrs because I am married, then I think I will continue to see this as ultimately about my marital status.

My true/false questions still haven't been answered. A few suggestions that you can be married and still call yourself miss but that doesn't change the reality that everyone reading that title then thinks you aren't married.

I'd not really thought about I before. I was miss, now mrs. Dh is just mr as always. There is no impetus for him to change his name or to choose his honorific.

Ds is master on his paperwork from the docs which I quite like :) He is only 13 weeks old though.

Really interesting thread. When I turned 30 I used to despair at being called Miss, hating the fact that my marital status had to be part of my name. I did use my Dr title quite a bit just to get rid of the Miss.

When I was 18 I lived in France for a year and was Madame the whole time. Marvellous. Now I live in Germany and am Frau all the time. Lovely. No-one asks whether I am married.

I work in an office here in Germany where the only accepted English form of address for a woman is Ms, regardless of marital status, PhD, nationality. It seems so simple here on the continent!

Incidently, for my daughter I often see letters addressed to her as "Shinerchen, minderjährige". No Fraulein.

It's horrid that I feel judged by having to circle Miss, as a single mum, but I admit I do. Should be above all the quick glances to my ring finger too whilst pushing the pram! Agree it is outdated and merely used to tell age and spinsterhood. Bin it!

I find it rather embarrassing that the famously misogynist French have managed to sort this out before we have. But it was probably easier because as others have mentioned M'elle/Madam is largely an age-based distinction there and has been for a long time. I recall I went from being M'elle to Madam some time in my early 20s.

Some people on this thread have mentioned how it is important to them to be Mrs DHsurname to show they are part of a happy family unit. I don't see any men feeling the need to change their title in order to do the same. No did I personally feel that need (I have been a Ms since the age of 15, both before and after marriage). I find it a very odd argument in favour of keeping Miss and Mrs.

Bling I've never found a bank has a problem with me being either an unmarried or married Ms.

Interesting that people objecting to one title seem to have 2 opposing reasons for that. One side argues that by using Mrs, they want to demonstrate their commitment to their husbands. The other side states in caps, that Mrs does not in any way say anything about your marital status anyway.

And Orbinator, but you don't have to use Miss if you don't want to.

Eurochick: to be fair, it clearly isn't bank policy. Just an over zealous call centre operator. But that's kind of my point.

I really don't like being called either Miss or Mrs. I don't see why my marital status should be introduced before my name. I don't agree with women taking their husband's surnames either and can't understand why the vast majority do this despite one in three marriages ending in divorce.

On the subject of older women and what they are called -- when my mother got married back in 1963 any post sent to her in her new home was addressed to 'Mrs Dadsname Dadsurname', even letters from her own mother. That was the correct way to address correspondence to a married woman and I think it is a fair indication of the legal reality of that Mrs degree.

There are gravestones in the cemeteries where my grandparents are buried that have inscriptions along the lines of 'Mrs Patrick Murphy'. I find that terribly sad.

'Your marital status does not determine your chosen title these days.. YOU DO. You can be a Ms, Miss or Mrs as you see fit in this day and age'

Rhinos, you are missing the point here in spectacular fashion. Two out of three of those honorifics denote marital status. The fact that you do not accept the meaning of two short words in the English language makes absolutely no difference. Mrs means married or formerly married. Miss means single in the sense of never married and is associated with girls and young women. There is no such distinction among married or unmarried men. Apparently it is important for a woman to signify her marital status still.