Feminism and female sexual submission

[RevoltingPeasant]

This is my first feminism post and am really interested in responses....

I have a long-running debate with a female friend over the possibility of a feminist woman engaging in submissive sex and/or fantasizing over dub con (dubious consent) material.

Her argument (against) is essentially that women are conditioned to see sex as a servicing of male needs without regard for their own pleasure, and that fantasizing about being dominated (or worse, coerced) represents an internalization of anti-female norms. That it's a kind of self-hating, practically akin to believing that women want to be raped secretly.

I think it's actually quite a common female fantasy and that stigmatizing an area of female pleasure isn't much different to 'patriarchal oppression'. I think it's quite anti-feminist, actually.

Am interested in thoughts - is it possible to be a feminist and engage in this type of fantasy or even role play? Is it possible to be a feminist man and wish to dominate your female partner sexually?

Well, first off, I don't quite see how her argument is 'stigmatizing an area of female pleasure'? Isn't she saying that that it's a kind of self-hating, so only an illusion of pleasure?

You may not agree but I don't really follow the terms of your disagreement (if that makes sense).

I also think, just because a woman enjoys something, disagreeing with her that it's good/healthy isn't in and of itself anti-feminist. I, for example, enjoy drinking a couple of bottles of wine knocked back with gin and tonic, but that is because I'm a (recovering) alcoholic - if someone tells me that drinking that much is bad, it doesn't change the fact I get pleasure from it, nor does it come across as anti-feminist.

The problem is, we can all see that alcoholism is (objectively) bad for the drinker, and we can probably all to some extend understand that the drinker likes booze. If you're asking, is rape fantasy a bad thing, that's something it's possible to discuss - is it (like alcoholism) something a woman might enjoy while it damages her?

But the reason I make this analogy is to show that simply saying your friend is being anti-feminist to object to women doing something they enjoy, doesn't to me seem that logical - it's a straw man to the main argument, of whether rape fantasy is harmful or harmless.

And as far as that goes, all I'd say is, I've got a lot more uncomfortable with it the more I read and learn about rape sexual violence.

Sorry, that is a much longer post than I meant to write and I'm not even sure it made sense!

Hmm, I'm tempted to agree more with you than your friend. If two people who trust each other enjoy dominating or being dominated, I don't think it's anti-feminist. Is it pro-feminist for a woman to dominate a man?

If its being acted out then obviously it depends where the boundaries of the activity lie. But I'm troubled by the concept of policing people's thoughts. It's people's behaviour that concerns me more.

I think telling a woman she only does something or likes something because she has been conditioned / brainwashed by society does make the assumption the woman is somehow not capable of making her own choices, is weak, easily manipulated and too stupid to know her own mind.

I do think that view is often anti-feminst as it tends only to be said to women by women and I never hear people saying it to men. I think saying this about a woman is very undermining

So I agree with the OP

Jericho yes I get what you are saying, but I guess the obvious retort is, 'But is rape fantasy et al. really damaging to a woman?'

I would say, not. That there is a world of difference between wanting to be raped - that old rightwing chestnut! - and fantasizing about being dominated.

I think it is stigmatizing an area of female pleasure cos if the woman is getting pleasure out of such fantasies (getting wet, achieving orgasm) then to say it is damaging or damaged for her to think in such ways is saying that her pleasure is illusory or wrong - but for the woman in question, I'd guess it feels pretty real.

...Does that make sense?

I guess your other Q about the overlap of real and imagined sexual violence is food for thought though.... is it really convincing of me to say that the two are so different??

REality so do you think that imagined sexual coercion is in a 'different box' as it were to real?

I though that he whole point about feminism was that it makes women equal,so allows them make choices. If their sexual pleasure of choice is to be submissive, then that's her choice. If the man forces this action, then that's not her choice.

RP - yes, that's what I was trying to say - they're separate questions whether this is bad/dangerous/whatever in itself, or whether people ever choose things that are bad for themselves (IMO).

catgirl - I don't think anyone, man or woman, makes totally free choices. I'm sure we don't (I guess the alcoholism again makes me see this much less as a gendered issue from my perspective).

I do think it's an interesting question, not a simple one - I don't mean to come across as if I'm dismissing it.

I tie myself up in knots with this one (no reference to s&m intended ).

Where I get really confused is that a woman playing out a rape scenario or submissive role play is not really being submissive is she? She has, presumably, made it clear to her partner that she likes this sort of sexual play and is, therefore, the protagonist in the scenario. If she hasn't, and her partner is assuming that 'all women like rape really' then she has been raped and isn't actually playing at sexual submission at all.

Good point sunshine. Agreed.

BewBaw + sunshine, playing devil's A on own thread now, but -

Do you not feel it is in some way making light of the seriously traumatic experiences of raped women to derive pleasure from a simulation/ fantasy of that experience, though?

I suppose I don't believe that but I fear it might be a good argument.

this is really interesting as i consider myself a feminist, yet like to be sexually submissive. In general though, i think the submissive partner is usually the one ultimately in charge and who sets the boundaries, so I dont think its anti feminist at all.

RP - yes I do, which is why I haven't taken a firm "all sexual fantasies are valid as long as they don't hurt anyone" stance. However, I am not completely convinced.

To my mind, the most pertinent phrase is "as long as they don't hurt anyone". In sex crimes - rape, paedophilia, etc., there is a victim who was forced or coerced and who is hurt, scared and damaged as a result. That isn't the case with submissive sexual fantasy because the 'victim' isn't being forced or coerced - in fact, they have probably told their partner that this is what they want. Therefore there is consent and the 'submissive' partner has the ultimate control. A rape victim or child has no such control.

Therefore, a fantasy 'rape' isn't actually a rape, so it isn't making light of the real thing because it's comparing apples to oranges IYSWIM. Real rape/paedophilia is an act of violence against an individual. It is not sex. Whereas sexual fantasy is very much about gaining maximum sexual fulfilment to benefit an individual.

And then I think: but if centuries of women being considered men's property and rape within relationships being perfectly legal, if I've internalised all that I would think that, wouldn't I...

So fence sitting happens in my head.

I think the biggest danger from rape fantasies is not so much the dismissing of real victim experiences, but the fact that "most women fantasise about rape" has become so entrenched in our national consciousness that some men use it as an excuse to minimalise unwanted sexual advances culminating in rape at the most extreme. However, I don't see why women should have to change their fantasies to stop that. It should just be clear that rape is never acceptable because the rape fantasy is not, in fact, a rape at all.

My head's hurting now thinking about it.

But since the fantasy is your own, and not the seriously traumatic experience of a raped woman, then no, I don't think it's making light of anyone's experience. It's your own experience, without any of the fear, real violence or trauma of a real rape.

And the control aspect is obviously a key difference. Perhaps it's the use of the word 'rape'. By definition the woman has no control in a rape situation, so any fantasy where she does ultimately have control is not rape fantasy at all, but a submission one?

That's how we get this idea of Cupid running around naked pointing a weapon at people.

But using sexual fantasy as an apology for rape - ie suggesting that what happens inside your head is part of normalising rape - is definitely anti-feminist isn't it??? That's suggesting that women who have rape fantasises are contributing to an 'asking for it' culture.

Women's sexual fantasises don't make rape happen. Rapists make rape happen.

Yes Wilson that is a good point!

It is remarkably easy to lose sight of that even as a feminist

But do you think it might change the fantasiser's (??) thoughts about real rape?

Yes, yes! What Wilson said.