Feminism and female sexual submission

[RevoltingPeasant]

This is my first feminism post and am really interested in responses....

I have a long-running debate with a female friend over the possibility of a feminist woman engaging in submissive sex and/or fantasizing over dub con (dubious consent) material.

Her argument (against) is essentially that women are conditioned to see sex as a servicing of male needs without regard for their own pleasure, and that fantasizing about being dominated (or worse, coerced) represents an internalization of anti-female norms. That it's a kind of self-hating, practically akin to believing that women want to be raped secretly.

I think it's actually quite a common female fantasy and that stigmatizing an area of female pleasure isn't much different to 'patriarchal oppression'. I think it's quite anti-feminist, actually.

Am interested in thoughts - is it possible to be a feminist and engage in this type of fantasy or even role play? Is it possible to be a feminist man and wish to dominate your female partner sexually?

I would hope that any woman who enjoys being sexually submissive is able to do so because she is in a safe relationship with a decent and loving man (or woman) whom she trusts implicitly.
I also think there is a huge difference between that kind of sexual interaction with a new partner / someone you don't know very well versus a long term relationship that has evolved over time to include such play.

I agree completely that the blame for rape lies with rapists and that anyone who says anything else causes rape, is making excuses for rapists.

I've been trying to work out hwo to answer this any way except personally, and I can't, so I'll just say the personal one - for me, I couldn't forget about people saying what rape is like, and how they've survived it and been brave enough to talk about it afterwards, and nothing could make me feel less sexy than thinking of that. I think the only way I could find it sexy would be if I forgot all about the things that I associate with rape, if rape just because a term with no real-life meaning for me. And of course I wouldn't want it to do that.

Oooh marking my place because I can't think right now because my neighbour is playing thumpy and rubbish dance music.

Revolting Plenty women believe that women who have been raped have been in some way culpable (short skirts, walking home at night, putting self in danger) so I guess it's not a jump to say that some women could think that sexual fantasises about rape might change how women think about rape.

I find that hard to believe but then I find it hard to believe that people shake their heads and go 'silly lassie should have got a taxi, what did she expect' - you know?

'just because rape exists, doesn't mean that some women don't enjoy the role
play scenario of submission or being forced'

Sure, but is anyone really saying the opposite?

This is what I mean about it being two separate arguments, whether it's enjoyable for people and whether it's a concern for feminism.

Is it the fantasising itself that endangers how people think about rape, or the fact that certain people (men?) know that women sometimes have these fantasies? I think the person having the fantasy must know where the boundaries lie, but those on the outside looking in might extrapolate?

If so you can hardly blame the fantasiser.

Isn't the whole point about a fantasy that the fantasist is in control? So if you want to, you can fantasise about flying over pine trees on a tropical beach while the suns sets slowly in the east, and part of the pleasure is in your re-making of the world. There's a plausible enough argument that some women fantasise rape because our culture doesn't prove many other images of women having sex, but all day-dreaming must be culturally limited anyway. I'd argue that, by definition, rape isn't fantasy.

I think sexual submission has pretty much zero to do with rape. How could it? Rape is sex against the will: part of a bdsm relationship is giving consent so therefore the two are not really the same thing at all.

I suppose for me it is a bit of a problem sometimes that my partner and I are in such heteronormative roles. He dominates me, I am submissive. Neither of us has any interest in switching. Why is it that turns us on and not the other way round?

Sometimes I wonder if it contributes to submission being the norm for women. I don't wonder if it encourages rape though, because I just don't see that as being part of it.

Am not feeling very eloquent tonight, but wanted to share a blog post from I Blame The Patriarchy on which I am still ruminating.

Rape (as victim) fantasies for women aren't really about actual rape, are they?

interesting blog, AyeRobot. I am on the BDSM scene a little bit, tend not to do anything with anyone other than my partner though. There are as many sleazy guys there as anywhere else.

yellowraincoat, that is one site where I go against the grain and highly recommend reading the comments too.

I have found a lot of people on the BDSM scene to be very anti-rape, supportive of women within the scene who have been assaulted and very negative (to the point of making them unwelcome at events etc) to people who have been accused of rape. Because a lot of people on the BDSM scene are perfectly capable of understanding the difference between submissive sex and rape.