"Bitter" women

[BasilRathbone]

I have noticed on MN (and in RL) that when women talk openly about their life experiences without attempting to ameliorate the effects of how they have been treated by men, the state, an employer - whoever- they are almost invariably described as "bitter".

This is irrespective of whether they sound bitter or not. They might be speaking quite soberly, factually about the fact that they were the victims of domestic violence, or emotional abuse and they are not trying to make excuses for the perpetrators. Or they might be describing without speculation, the processes they had to go through, to get help for their disabled child. Or they might be describing the inadequate response of an employer, to a case of workplace bullying. Or any bad experience they have ever had, where they have been seriously put upon and another person or a system, treated them badly.

It doesn't matter how rationally and factually they speak about it, the very fact that they speak out without making excuses for the perpetrator or the system, seems to automatically define them as "bitter" in the eyes of many people. When men speak out about their bad or sad experiences, they are not assumed to be eaten up with anger and bitterness, their experience is respected and mostly they meet with sympathy. The only men who are pointed at as "bitter" are fairly extremist loons who come out with stuff like "all women are bitches" and even then, the excuse is made for them that "it's understandable he feels like that, she treated him so badly" etc. etc. Mostly though, even though most women aren't bitter, if they dare to describe in detail the shit that has been thrown at them without making excuses for the shit-throwers, they are assumed to be bitter and twisted and unable to move on and that is their fault, no-one else's.

Am I imagining this?

Haven't noticed this, tbh, not on MN at least.

Am I imagining this?

Erm.... maybe a wee little bit?... But probably not, come to think of it.

Women have been told to put up and shut up for centuries - and if you're in doubt about this, see e.g. Helena Kennedy's 'Eve Was Framed'. Calling women 'bitter' when they reasonably speak out about injustices is of course unreasonable and a hangover from a vile neglect of women's human rights.

It would also be the case that accusing men of 'bitterness' when they speak out about injustice would be cruel, unreasonable, etc.

There may be a few MNers who are vicious in this way - but I think MN posters are overwhelmingly quite supportive to other posters.

And in RL? Of course there are some arseholes out there.

However (and I expect to get flamed for saying this), there is something of a 'victim culture' which seems to appeal to a few women - and garners a great deal of media attention ('missing white woman syndrome' etc.). And I think that to some extent it's still more acceptable for women to regard themselves as hapless victims than it is for men to see themselves in this light. So I guess people see/hear more explicit 'victim talk' from women than men. And consequently listeners/readers experience more compassion fatigue. IYSWIM?

I have noticed that often, if people share experiences of their own when they're not the OP, someone will accuse them of being bitter or 'reading in' to what is said, as if it's somehow unfair to consider any parallels to the OP's situation that didn't turn out smelling of roses.

I think the 'you're bitter/you must be very sad and angry' remarks are a silencing tactic. If you really believed someone was bitter or sad, you'd try to cheer them up and comfort them - at least some of the time. I think sometimes the people who say these things do it because they can't ignore what's being said (it gets to them on some level), but they don't want to accept it might be real enough to be worth answering properly or having compassion about.

Not all the time I'm sure, but often I think that's what it is.

Yes I suspect that's what it is Jericho - if you can make it the victim's fault that they feel this way, a shortcoming in their character, then you don't have to think about the original behaviour that they are referring to and the context whihc makes that behaviour possible and therefore you don't have to think about how you can make things different so this behaviour wasn't as easy ot perpetrate and/ or get away with.

Plump, I'm not sure - I don't think women do go on about stuff which makes them angry or which was an example of injustice they suffered, precisely because they are afraid of being labelled bitter. IME, only women who are a bit damaged, tell people about their experiences, because they know what to expect.

I think the 'women as victims' thing is bollocks TBH. Yes, women say they are more often victims of all sorts of things. That's because women are more often victims of all sorts of things. It'd be kind of odd if we didn't hear about it more.

I think that's it basil - a sort of head-in-the-sand 'it'd never happen to me' attitude.

I've noticed often women who get called bitter post elsewhere sounding perfectly happy with their (current) lives, so it does feel like protesting too much sometimes.

Take this to the appropriate board. Isn't there a thread about posting in the right place on AIBU.

I hate the word bitter, with a passion. It generally describes a woman who has had a bad experience and is upset by it, which let's face it is a valid response. I think this goes back to that thread about the female politician being emotional in a debate. How women's feelings are somehow invalid.

Eh? Why is this inappropriat here?

handdived - totally agree.

Re. that thread and its digressions as well - a man who's had a bad romantic experience is often seen as a romantic figure, someone who needs a good loving woman to 'save' him; a woman - she's Miss Havisham.

What are you on about SigmundFraud?

This is the right board to discuss the silencing of women and the invalidation of their experience.

It's er, the feminist board.

Good OP Basil.

I've noticed this too and I hate it.

It seems to be used particularly with reference to single mums where someone will inevitably tell her, at some point during the thread, that she is 'bitter', often used with 'controlling'.

Example: "how dare you suggest to your ex it's not a good idea to let your DC stay up all night watching the SAW trilogy when looking after them, you are obviously bitter and controlling!"

I think it's used as a silencing technique.

I see Jericho has already said the same thing more eloquently than me!

Worth saying twice I think . The application to single mums is also hand in hand with those women calling their exes on their bad behaviour and not "forgiving and forgetting". Because after all women have to forgive.

It's like jeffing bingo. You can guarantee it'll pop up somewhere on thread, just a matter of time. Very tiresome.

Absolutely - it's a silencing technique commonly applied to women who aren't going to pretend not have have been damaged by someone else's bad behaviour, just as 'You're shrill/irrational' is often used to a woman who, in the act of complaining abour or drawing attention to some form of unfair or poor treatment, isn't bothering to try to be charming, self-deprecating or deferential.

I see it a lot on mumsnet especially on the "I've contacted the OW" type threads. The women are told that if they do this they will be seen as the 'bitter' types.

I agree totally with the OP, it is a means of silencing women.

Yeah, the single mums one is odd - it never seems to occur to anyone that these women might be quite glad to be shot of men they think were tossers.

That one always gets me too Jericho.

I was never a bitter person, until the abuse got horrific and it was pointed out to me, the more bitter I got the more I realised how much power I gave away, how badly I was treated etc, I was as bitter at myself as I was at those that had abused me. Going through a bitter stage does not make you a bitter person, i think of it as a healing stage like the stages of grief. I have never experienced anger and hurt like it. I am so glad the majority of it has gone, it really is hard when you are still being abused and no longer living with the abuser who is recruiting the court system and using the legal system to continue his abuse of you.

I think there are some things it's quite natural to be bitter about TheMouse, and what you describe is one of them.

"it really is hard when you are still being abused and no longer living with the abuser who is recruiting the court system and using the legal system to continue his abuse of you."

Totally, I have been through court proceedings myself and it can be soul destroying.

I'd like to know which board is more appropriate, or was SigmundFraud making a joke?

Definitely. As in you're definitely right, not you're definitely imagining this.

There's a woman I know who experienced horrific treatment by her X. She still talks a lot about it many years since. People think she's bitter because "it's all she talks about".

I'd say she's entitled to take a few years to get over the fact that her X broke her jaw and her cheekbone, slashed her with a stanley knife and threatened her with chip fat in the face and if talking about it helps her, good for her; I'm happy to listen and so are lots of others. Despite her experiences, she's irrepressibly cheerful and the sort who would do anything for anyone, so I'd say she's far from bitter. I really enjoy her company.

I think it comes back to the just world hypothesis. So many people cannot assimilate the idea that bad things happen to good people and that innocent victims are often just that - innocent. It brings them up sharp against the knowledge that they could do everything right and still end up in the shit. I think the tendency to dismiss more women than men as bitter is because it is more often women who are in the position of being in the shit. Historically, they've had far les agency in their lives than men and because male privilege has been the dominant view, there has been a need to dismiss the unhappiness of such a large section of the population by making them responsible for their own misfortune. I see similar happening with benefit recipients currently.

The bad things happening to good people thing is not helped by people going on about karma!

I also from time time remind my dc, that life isnt like a hollywood movie.

Life can be rubbish and unfair, and the reality is there is often no retribution, no making up for the bad things and no showing up of those that abused you, that is very difficult to live with, you have to learn to accept you will be treated badly by others and no one will believe you or make it better.

Classic silencing tactic, and one that I especially notice when it comes to women writing within the Christian/feminist blogosphere. Christians just love smugly telling people they are 'bitter' simply for speaking out against something. It's one of the most tedious anti-woman tactics on the internet.